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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: talesofthesevenseas on July 14, 2010, 02:09:50 pm
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I would really like to try to nail down a value on my cast iron carousel horse. You guys have some of these photos before. The prices I have heard for cast iron carousel horses are all over the map and maybe you guys can find something I have missed in trying to determine an accurate value. I'm not selling it, this is one of those "pry it from my cold dead hands" kind of pieces that I would never part with. It comes from a carousel I grew up riding as a child. I just want to know for my own sake and for an insurance value.
Here's the history.
My horse was made by Arrow Development Company in Mountain View CA in 1948 (The carousel has a date plaque on it) Arrow went on to produce some of the classic rides for Disney such as the Matterhorn, Pirates of the Caribbean and many others. The carousel my horse is from was installed in Happy Hollow children's park when it opened in 1961. Where it was between 1948 and 1961 is uncertain. I suspect it took a while to get the park opened and operational.
In the early 1970's the original horses were removed from the carousel and they were replaced by fiberglass sea animals, which are still there now. That was when I got my horse, when the old horses were put up for sale in the 70's. We paid $130 at the time as I recall.
About a year ago, Happy Hollow was remodeled and the last five horses were put up at auction. The park kept one for a history display. As you can see in the photo below, the condition of the remaining five wasn't as good as my horse, and although they all have Arrow factory paint, the remaining five were not quite as attractive as the ones that sold earlier on. At auction, the five remaining horses sold from $500 to $2000 and there was no significant differences between them. I think the auction price had more to do with availability and suspect that had there only been one horse the numbers would have been different.
Cast iron carousel horses are transition pieces, falling between the collectible and highly valuable carved wooden animals of yesterday and the fiberglass animal castings of today. I've tried contacting carousel collectors clubs, but they regard horses like mine as more or less worthless.
Here are the photos of my horse, note the factory painted Arrow letter "A" on his chest:
(http://www.talesofthesevenseas.com/Eclipse1.JPG)
(http://www.talesofthesevenseas.com/Eclipse2.JPG)
(http://www.talesofthesevenseas.com/Eclipse3.JPG)
Here are the horses recently sold at auction, prior to being dusted off and put on the auction block. Although all the remaining horses are of the same casting as mine, with the raised head, there were at least two different poses, three as I recall. The carousel is a three-abreast ride. You can see them if you look closely at the 60's photo of the carousel.
(http://www.talesofthesevenseas.com/HappyHollow2.jpg)
Here's the horses cleaned up, waiting to be auctioned:
(http://www.talesofthesevenseas.com/HappyHollow5.jpg)
(http://www.talesofthesevenseas.com/HappyHollow3.jpg)
(http://www.talesofthesevenseas.com/HappyHollow7.jpg)
Here is the carousel in the 1960's when the horses were still on it. Nothing fancy, but we kids loved it!
(http://www.talesofthesevenseas.com/HappyHollow1.jpg)
Here is the old Arrow Development Co shop today. It is now an auto body shop, but the guys there still talk about how Walt Disney used to come there to check on projects back when Arrow Development was in the building.
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x124/talesofthesevenseas/ArrowDevelopment2.jpg)
So aside from the auction prices that I have posted above, can anyone find a value on full-sized, original cast iron carousel horses, preferably by Arrow Development in order to get a baseline value? There are a lot of repros that were never on actual carousels, watch for the position of the pole. Repros are usually skewered through the middle and are impossible to ride.
Thanks all!
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No luck here on finding an Arrow Development horse price for comparison. This site http://www.gameroomantiques.com/Carnival.htm has some horses ranging from $895-1450 but they do not look like Arrow's.
The Mexican repros seem to sell for $300-500 so I would think yours would be in the range of $1000-2000 at least. I think the outside horses are valued more because they were fancier (on wood carousels anyway). Is your horse an inner, an outer, or in the middle?
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There was no difference in the size or decoration on these horses. Mostly just head and neck positions were different. Looking at the old photo from the sixties, it looks like the horses with their heads tucked down were on the exterior in at least one or two rows. I can't recall if every row was like that or if the horses were in mixed positions. I'll see if I can find some more old photos online.
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No luck finding old pictures, the ones that come up are of the sea animals or of the smaller horse carousel that was added to the park later. I did find something interesting. The carousel may have been purchased in San Diego CA.
"...In 1959, my husband was named chairman of the project by the Jaycees. My favorite memories are the ride to deliver Danny to the park, a donated mynah bird with language too salty for children to hear, a trip to San Diego to purchase a merry-go-round."
I'm going to follow up and see if I can track down the lady who was quoted in that news article!
The National Carousel Assoc. has some very incorrect data posted.
It credits Allan Hershall (a wooden carousel carver!) with making the carousel, has it listed with two rows instead of three and has it dated to the 1950's when the plaque on it says 1948!
http://www.nca-usa.org/census/census-METAL.html (http://www.nca-usa.org/census/census-METAL.html)
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Tales, just been searching and came across an interesting point in two different places....... are you sure your horse is cast iron?
http://www.carouselworkshop.com/carousel_glossary.htm
".......Aluminum Carousel Horses, originally earliest late 1940's or later, from the Allen Herschell or Parker Company....these have been copied and reproduced many time over and imported from Mexico...some reproductions had Coca Cola Bases."
http://www.muleskinnerantiques.com/rkphotopage.html (seems similar in style to yours)
"In the 1930’s the Hershell Spillman Carousel Company began crafting horses for their Merry-Go-Rounds out of aluminum. They had their best carvers carve these detailed two piece wooden molds for use in sand casting the aluminum horses. These molds are extremely rare! This one is for an outside jumper. He measures 46” long x 22” high x 8” thick. Quite an exciting find!"
You likely came across this history already (search - Arrow Dynamics)
http://everything2.com/title/Arrow+Dynamics
Going to see what I can find on this.......a functioning Arrow Carousel at Sea World, Australia ;)
http://www.roller-coaster.com.au/ride.php?rid=32
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Trying to find a better pic of the carousel at Sesame Street Beach, Sea World....
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Yes it is definitely iron. Like a huge, cast iron frying pan. It weighs a ton. I once tore the cartilage in my knee bumping into it's hoof and had another close call when it came crashing down next to me during the Loma Prieta earthquake in 1989! (We've been through a lot together this horse and I!!)
I didn't know that Hershell-Spillman made aluminum horses, I can see that is how the Nat'l Carousel Assoc. got the info mixed up. Hershell-Spillman horses are known for their "Roman nose" horses, with the arched facial profile. You can really see it the photos at the link you posted.
I have seen the Arrow info. There are also some interesting articles on Morgan and Bacon, the two guys who founded Arrow at the end of WWII. There is also a book out (retails at $100!!!) called "Roller Coasters, Flumes and Flying Saucers" all about the company. But I just saw that Amazon had a used copy priced at $24 so I grabbed it:
http://www.amazon.com/Roller-Coasters-Flumes-Flying-Saucers/dp/0965735354/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1279148034&sr=8-1 (http://www.amazon.com/Roller-Coasters-Flumes-Flying-Saucers/dp/0965735354/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1279148034&sr=8-1)
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That looks like the same model of horses, from what I can see, or something similar. Although Arrow Dynamics made it in 1981, I wonder if they used the same molds?
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They just mention that the park opened in '81. I've run across several references to carousels being dismantled and moved to other parks, so possibly it is an older model. Have attached a larger (but not much better) pic.....only one I have found so far.
Possibly somewhere in the listings here you might also find someone/something that could help with answers.
http://www.carouselnews.com/BUYER-S-GUIDE/
Taken from main site ....... http://www.carouselnews.com/
How the heck do you move that sucker around with that weight?? :o (He sure puts my little wooden rocking horse to shame ;))
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Although I have picked him up by myself, it realistically takes two people, each holding onto the legs. He lifts up and the pole stays with him, but lifts up out of the base, which is cement and weighs a lot also. I don't move him around. He seems content to stay put in the hallway most of the time and doesn't gallop around too much, except when the moon is full. ;)
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Just came across a FB page regarding the history and final sale in 2009 with some pics of the carousel. Can't say they look anything near the quality of your beautiful beast. In fact the black looks to be airbrushed, that's what they call 'refurbished'?? :P
http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=105861971413
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Tales, have you contacted this guy yet?
http://www.allexperts.com/ep/682-34716/Collectibles-General-Antiques/Bruce-W-Zubee.htm
(of Carousels.com and New England Carousel Museum, among others)
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Just came across a FB page regarding the history and final sale in 2009 with some pics of the carousel. Can't say they look anything near the quality of your beautiful beast. In fact the black looks to be airbrushed, that's what they call 'refurbished'?? :P
http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=105861971413
That's the smaller carousel, not the one that my horse is from. The horses are small size, meant for little kids. My horse is large enough for adults to ride.
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Tales, have you contacted this guy yet?
http://www.allexperts.com/ep/682-34716/Collectibles-General-Antiques/Bruce-W-Zubee.htm
(of Carousels.com and New England Carousel Museum, among others)
No I had not seen this guy before. I'll post a question and see what happens. Thanks!
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You know, it is possible this might not be iron. That's what we were told it was in the 70's, but that might not be right. Now that I'm thinking about it, where the paint is scuffed through the white primer it looks like steel, it's silver, not black. Maybe it is aluminum, but it is really, really heavy. Sure feels like iron.
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Speaking of carousel horse repros, I'm pretty sure this is one. It's been on Craigslist for weeks and the seller claims it is a "very old" restored horse from San Francisco. The seller claims that they got it in pieces and restored it. If that's true, they should be shot for painting it Peptobismol pink! But look at how the mane is in the rider's position in the saddle... there's no place to sit! And not a single chip missing off that highly impractical tail? I'm thinkin' Mexico repro.
(http://images.craigslist.org/3n43m93o25Y45Z55R2a7ee37721ae8cf91010.jpg)
Original listing
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/for/1842569564.html (http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/for/1842569564.html)
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OMG! Peptobismol ! :D I had thought My Little Pony on steroids, but I have to agree with you there.
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t98/geeziesmom/28688.jpg)
I doubt it was ever meant to ride. If anything, likely for display....but haven't come across anything close to
that mane and tail in any of the ones I seen this far. ::)
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This one reminded me a lot of yours (had to download and expand to see more detail), but it's listed twice on the same site......once as being a Herschell and further down without identification (possible picture mix up?). But both listings with
the same price of $895.
http://www.gameroomantiques.com/Carnival.htm
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Tales, not related to your horse but came across this site. What an amazing story - which could have become a repetition of the fate of many carousels. The 'Turn of the Century' section is particularly sad when you consider the loss. It would be interesting to follow the progress and see the full restoration.
I've linked to the Background page, there are further links at the bottom where you can view the 'Stable' awaiting their transformation.
http://www.3rdwave.com/carousel/background.shtml
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Boy does that tug on my heart strings Sapphire! I can't imagine loading them into a furnace!!! Oh!!!!
I had a big breakthrough tonight!!
I tracked down Judith Starbird Guardino, the lady quoted in the Mercury News article. She referred me to her ex-husband Tony Starbird. Tony was the man who purchased the carousel for Happy Hollow park! He was with the San Jose Jaycees organization at the time and he did quite a lot of the original purchasing for the park.
I had a great conversation with him and he told me that he had had a very hard time finding a carousel for the park, let alone one that they could afford. But after a great deal of searching, they found the Arrow Development Co. carousel - get this- Under the horse race track at Tanforan Race Track! This was an early horse racing facility, and the entire carousel was being stored in pieces in below-ground storage rooms there. He said he did not know how it got there, but thought that it had come from some small children's park in San Francisco. Tanforan Racetrack was just a little outside of SF in San Bruno, CA.
Mr. Starbird said that finding out how the carousel got under the racetrack and where it came from before that was going to be tough. But he said to keep at it and not to give up and I assured him that I would! ;D So I think we have been given a mission LOL!
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Cool historical research so far , talesof .
Have you taken out your magnet & checked it yet ?
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Ahhh-HA!! The magnet doesn't stick! It must be cast aluminum or some other alloy!
Thanks RJ2, I forgot to do a magnet test!
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Good to know , talesof.
I was waiting to find that tid-bit out !
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Tales not sure if this will help but it sounds as if you need to search the carnival circuit Here in the northeast we have a company that will set up rides & games for fairs & such, it is a family run business that has been around since 1947, They may have old records of purchases & sales of older equipment & rides. I would check your area also to see if any such companies have been family owned for years also. I have dealt with many such companies in my area and they are mostly family owned for generations it seems to be in their blood. this company is called Gillette shows http://www.gilletteshows.biz/index.htm ( still researching your family spoon from Geer Terry watchmaker, silversmith & jeweler can not get to the archives often but will keep at it when time allows ;)
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Before I lose track of this site I hit I'm going to post it here. Tales, don't know if this would be useful or even still in existence but gonna stick it here just in case. Came across it searching hits for their carousels. The main article down the center talks about one at that park and the refurbishment. Thought that somewhere on here, maybe through the menu, there might be some kind of link to company histories.
http://www.gettheloop.com/loopapril3/loop053.html
Don't mind me, just rambling and waiting for the caffeine to kick in. Figure if I wait till I'm alert I won't remember where I found this.:P
Edited to ad another 'maybe' ;) Leaving for work shortly and know I'll not find the stuff I started reading, so here's another......lots of links to many of the attractions and some great old pics too.
http://coolrain44.wordpress.com/2009/05/31/remembering-lost-and-forgotten-roadside-tourist-attractions-and-amusement-parks-on-the-west-coast/
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Great thread and congrats on a excellent piece TOT7S.
Wish I had some useful info but just have a photo of my son riding a horse at Greenfield Village that kind of resembles yours.
Something about being on one with the old time carnival music going that seems to transport you back in time.
Call me immature but riding these bad boys is a opportunity that I try not to pass by (to my son's embarasment he'll even have to stop me from jumping on the penny one at our local Meijer's).
Thanks for posting this great history.
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Thanks for all the info above! I think my next course of action will be to get the serial number from the carousel plaque through my contact at Happy Hollow, then to try contacting the surviving founder of Arrow Development or his son, who ran the company after him. They may have some old records from the 40's of the original sale of the carousel.
Dean I know exactly what you mean about the facination with carousels. I really got hooked when I was in 5th grade and read a book called "Gigi: The Story of a Merry-Go-Round-Horse". It was a story told from the perspective of a French carousel horse that chronicals his relationships with humans who both care for him as well as seek to profit from him and the journey he takes as his carousel is sold off and handed through different owners over the years. Eventually this leads him back to a woman who befriended Gigi when she was a child. I must have read that book at least ten times and I have never outgrown my fascination with carousels.
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Well, I got an answer from the carousel guy at All Experts.
"I don't think it's necessary to put a separate insurance rider on this piece. Aluminum horses are not all that valuable and last forever. I'd place a realistic retail value of $600-$800 on your horse. I'm sure you'll see some offered with higher price tags but I'd be willing to bet that you never see them sell."
I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand I know I'm terribly biased because of my emotional attachment to the horse. So I'm aware that that could cloud my judgement. On the other had, I KNOW that identical horses in lesser condition and with less going for them than mine sold for as high as $2000 just a year or so ago, and that's not just speculation on my part. I got that info from the folks who ran the auction at Happy Hollow.
I've run into this with people who are collectors of the wooden horses. They don't seem to feel that the later metal ones have any appreciable value, and I just can't say for sure if they take into account the nostalgia buying market or not. I guess it's like asking Jay Leno what a VW bug with original factory paint is worth, LOL!
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I just got my paws on an out-of-print copy of "Roller Coasters, Flumes and Flying Saucers - The Story of Ed Morgan and Karl Bacon Ride Inventors of the Modern Amusement Parks". There is some interesting info in it about the cast aluminum horses and the carousels they were on.
First off, Morgan and Bacon (aka Arrow Development Co) were the first to create an all-steel carousel. It was a little one, the 20' diameter type with small horses and it was one that I rode as a kid. It was up in Alum Rock Park in San Jose CA.
The horses were all made of cast aluminum, except for during the Korean War and for a short time in the early 1950's they made the horses from magnesium. But they didn't hold up well and would tend to crack when they cooled.
One of the partners commented that these early metal carousels were designed to be portable, because they were often purchased for traveling carnivals and would only be in place for three days or so before being dismantled and transported. He said that from a design standpoint they were fabulous, because they would break down and go together quickly and easily. But that from an asthetic standpoint, he was not proud of how the carousels looked. But I have to say we kids loved 'em anyway! (and still do!)
Here'a a couple of photos from the book, the first showing the "plug and mold" for my model of horse:
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x124/talesofthesevenseas/ArrowDevelopment4-1.jpg)
The second showing one of the carousels which looks just like the one my horse came from at Happy Hollow. Same basic design but the photo is clearer than the one posted above from the 60's. Looks like the horses with their heads raised like mine are on either the center or interior row. The horses with the heads tucked are all on the outside row.
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x124/talesofthesevenseas/ArrowDevelopment3-1.jpg)
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Here's an update, the fiberglass sea animals that replaced my horse are now up on sale on Craigslist, for $1500 to $2000 each.
C-list ad:
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/atq/1918533062.html (http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/atq/1918533062.html)
Photostream:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/28421666@N06/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/28421666@N06/)
I called the guy who had the ad and the carousel has been dismantled and parts of it destroyed. It is currently up for sale and they are hoping to find someone interested in taking the whole thing. He was quite nice and was interested in the info I have on it. I was able to get a serial number from the carousel, but it comes from a label that dates to much later than the carousel. I'm hoping it is not a city assigned number, but one from the manufacturer that was transferred onto the label. More if I get more info.
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Great info Tales & sounds like a good clue to run with!!!
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Hi, I don't know if you are still researching your horse, but I wanted you to know that I have one of the 5 that were auctioned and I would argue that mine is every bit as beautiful as yours Lol! ;) I only had $800 with me the day of the auction. I grew up on those horses, as did my kids. They were all that I was bidding for. Naturally I was devastated when they went for $2800. On the 4th horse, I frantically bid and when it reached $900 I dejectedly dropped out and a gentleman from the audience jumped up and shouted to the auctioneer "o fer crissake cant you see how much she wants one of those horses? Just SELL it to her already". The auctioneer laughed and said "this is an AUCTION...I can't just sell it to her". And then something wonderful happened. Nobody else bid. They all just sat there and the auctioneer pointed his gavel at me and said "Ma'am, this is your lucky day". Everyone started clapping and I and my daughter were jumping up and down. I love my horse, his name is Lucky of course; he has a beautiful oak and brass stand and he gets dressed up every Christmas.
I would love to know where you got a copy of the Arrow book. I'm not worried about Lucky's value. I think he's priceless!
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What a lovely story .. restores your faith in humanity somewhat! :)
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What a GREAT story!!
Tales will love it when she reads it I'm sure.
Ed
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It's a wonderful life! Nice story.
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Oh what a fantastic story! Thanks so much for tracking me down and sharing it! I agree, our horses are priceless! Like you, I grew up on them at Happy Hollow.
I would be happy to loan you the Arrow book, you can just send it back to me when you are done with it. Send me a message with a mailing address and I'll get it out to you. These books are out of print and hard to come by and when they do come up they go for about $80 - $100. (I got lucky and got one for $24) The writing is unfortunately quite amateurish, but the content is fabulous.
I spoke to the man who purchased the carousel for Happy Hollow back in the late 1950's. He was with the San Jose Jaycees at the time. He told me they had a hard time finding a carousel for the park and how important it was to bringing in revenue for the park. Our carousel was found in storage underneath the old Tanforan Race Track outside of San Francisco. He and his partners with the Jaycees came up with a bunch of guys with trucks and hauled all the pieces of the carousel down to Happy Hollow in the middle of the night. It was designed to tear-down and transport, but it sounds like it was quite an adventure hauling it in pickup trucks! Sadly, the carousel was up for sale being parted out on Craigslist a few months ago.
I'm really pleased to be incontact with another person who loves these horses as much as I do! ;D
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OH-MY-GOODNESSSSSSSSSSSSSSS! I love it when people let their "human kindness" show! AND, of course, our TALESOF lets her kindness side show all the time!
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What a great story!