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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: greenacres on December 03, 2010, 04:30:40 pm
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It says Drink to the memory of Haym Solomon-Unsung Hero of our Revolution-who gave (not loaned) his entire fortune to the cause and died penniless
A true Patriot
The facts are true, but is it real or a souvenir
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I wouldn't know fake from one worth "two in the bush" as it were but the address could be plausible...
http://www.elfrethsalley.org/houses/139-elfreths-alley
"Both he and the house’s second owner, schoolmaster James Hunter, rented the house to artisans and other Philadelphians of the “middle sort.”
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Wow, that is really cool! It does appear to be in extremely good shape, which makes me nervous. But the writing is the correct style for the period. hmmm I want to know more. I'm a revolutionary war freak, so I'm excited to see what everyone comes up with.
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I think a Philly Rev War museum would be the best source for authenticating this. Hosman brings up a good point about the language. I would also look at the capitalization, which was hit and miss in those days, but the general rule of thumb was to capitalize all important common nouns in addition to proper nouns. Which words are capitalized, as shown in your post? Although it wouldn't resolve the issue either way, it might give us a clue.
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Actually it is the writing that bothers me. Or better said could help date the piece as not being in the time frame of his death as "s" was written as an "f" until the early 1800's if memory serves... I guess it could be a Centennial piece....
Edited to correct the cap "s". Small "s" was written as "f"
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I'll go check my newspapers and see how late the "S,F" thing was going on for. I think I have some from the late 1700's where it was kind of in transition.
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Here's an article on the long and short S. What I can't find is if that cursive style lower case s that is used in "his" on this piece, was in use in the 18th century.
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I found this at Wiki (which is never wrong... LOL) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_s
The long s fell out of use in roman and italic typefaces well before the middle of the 19th century; in France the change occurred from about 1780 onwards, in Britain in the decades around 1800, and some twenty years later in the United States. This may have been spurred by the fact that long s looks somewhat like an f (in both its roman and italic forms), whereas short s did not have this disadvantage, making it easier to identify, especially for people with problems of vision.
Seems to me tho it fell out of favor prior to the 1820's but 1810 is certainly possible...
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Looks like that cursive s is OK. Here's some examples from the George Washington papers in the Library of Congress:
http://gwpapers.virginia.edu/maps/farm/farmmap/legend.html (http://gwpapers.virginia.edu/maps/farm/farmmap/legend.html)
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Good one Tales... I just looked at some Census records from 1800 ond I see the "s" was written as we would recognize. Keep in mind this guy died in 1785.... I'll try to look for some samples in that time frame. The "A" in Ally looks good according to this site (scroll to bottom): http://www.amberskyline.com/treasuremaps/oldhand.html
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I am also a history fanatic. I've done a lot of reading on the Whiskey Rebellion time period after finding a landfill from the late 1700's and on. Spackle buckets of bottles and crocks, my hands were a mess. I was fascinated with the embossing. I researched the people and how some of the history tied together with the whiskey rebellion. I bought books from the historic society. They were a little costly, but I had to know. So, when I got this cup I read up the info, so I knew it was true. When I was in the city I kept questioning is there some kind of gift shop? But I knew the person i got it from had long past away. She was a collector like myself.
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Do you know any of the story of where she got it?
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What do the ending "s"-es look like in "penniless"... I have gone through several examples of census records on ancestry using the last name Ross so I see two ending s-es. In the handwriting samples I have found, ending "ss" was written to look like "fs" consistently until the 1860 census where it was written as "ss" over several areas of the country...
Any single "s" in the middle of a name was written as an "s" - not an "f"...
Clear as mud?
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Hope this helps!
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I wonder if the glaze could be tested...
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From the handwriting I would say post 1850... Here are some examples from Censuses. I looked at several from different areas of the country including some years from Philadelphia and the "ss" style was consistent (not regional). Prior to 1850, on censuses at least, "ss" was written (to our eye) as "fs" on 1860 it is written as "ss"
The first pic you are looking for a Ross from 1850 (New York)
Second pic a De Ross from 1850 (Wisconsin)
Third Pic a Boss from 1860 (New York I think)
All names should be near the top....
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It is crackled, the glaze. I live in Philadelphia. Which museum would you go to or contact? Shoulld I go to the Academy of Natural Science? Should I take a better picture?
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Hope this helps....p
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Another hint that this is post 1850... http://www.elfrethsalley.org/houses/121-elfreths-alley
Look closely at the door of House 121. Above the plaque with the house number is another plaque with another house number – Number 8. The Alley used a different numbering system until the middle of the 19th century. It started on the north side of the Alley at the waterfront, where House 107 once stood, ran all the way up the north side of the Alley and then back down the south side. So, House 107 (now demolished) was originally House 1, and across the street House 106 (also gone) was known as House 34.
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An interesting thread of which I know little about. I would like to know when the abbreviation "Philada" was in use? Seems an unusual abbreviation for Philadelphia to me.
I am answering my own question. I found this reference on antique buttons and the use of "Philada"...George Armitage, Philadelphia Pennsylvania, made buttons 1799 to 1826. The buttons bearing "Philada" are an old style of presentation of "Philadelphia". From...http://www.relicman.com/buttons/zBackmarkPhilada.htm
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It was a good question Wayward... I googled too and found out the Liberty Bell has Philada inscribed on it...
As far as Museums to contact, I might start with The Elfreth's Alley Museum: http://www.elfrethsalley.org/exhibits There were potters that lived in the Alley so maybe the museum can give some direction. They also would know about the residents as I'm sure they have collected several stories over the years. And... if nothing else they may be able to refer you to another group...
It is a really cool piece!! I would love to know more about it too!!
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My gut just feels like it was a commemorative mug for a visitor. Nice looking tho'!
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Interesting about the Meyers. I'll have to contact the museum and see what the real story is behind the mug. I looked for a gift shop on line and saw no items. I will send them the pictures and see what they say. It's funny because if you read the book " For all other Nights " it makes this mug more interesting. It about Jews during the Revolution. I assume the names Meyers, Cline were Jews themselves.
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I just wrote to the museum and ask if any mugs like these made commercially or not or at anytime. I hope they respond. I'll let you know.
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Here some info on the person. It's interesting about the stamp that honors him because look what was written in 1975 Revoluntionary Hero. It sounds similar.
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You know... I would be very disappointed if this were a souvenir piece sold by the museum - unless they have been around for 100+ years and I don't think that's the case. The handwriting IS old - it just doesn't seem to fit within a reasonable time frame of his death. I kinda think it was either a Centennial piece OR even 10-20 yrs earlier/later. Perhaps they had a block party on the 4th of July and the local potter opened up his shop.... I dunno.... I making stuff up now ;D
I should also add the disclaimer that I know absolutely nothing about pottery and such...
If it were a later souvenir I would expect that it would have some other mark (besides a sticker) if sold by a museum.
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It is hard to get a feel for the age of this mug only through internet pics. If this was a late to recent souvenir piece, I would expect to find at least a few examples on the web and I have found none. Now if this was an early period piece, I would expect to find almost no examples on the web, and there are none. Now if the potter sold souvenirs, I would expect the output to be limited and most examples discarded/broken/damaged over time. Just my thoughts as I know very, very little about pottery.
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I thought that too! Why am I the only one who has one. There should be one on ebay! lol As I read through the history of the families at the time this cup is very plausible due to some of the families of the street. I've search online images, everywhere. I hope the museum emails me back tomorrow. When I looked up there gift shop items all I got were tastykakes and soft pretzels. They aren't bad either, but not what I was looking for.
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Philada is very common. I have that on a lot of old bottles from that time period
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That street is VERY well known as a historical street and the gentleman has since become very acclaimed in aiding the US out of bankruptcy.
There was a potter just a few doors down in the mid 1900's...when it was an up and coming tourist stop.
I am still leaning towards the tourist item...but not made on a large scale. If I was touting the historical value of the area I would also put all written works in verbage of the time!
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I called the museum today. It's so small they are only open Tues. and Sat. Since this was a gift in the 40's from someone who lived in one of the houses I'm still not sure. This area is so small, Im not sure if there able and can afford mass production. I have put it in my computer 100 different ways wouldn't one come up? I'm hoping I hear from the museum tomorrow.
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Spoke to the museum today. The person I spoke with knew nothing of a mug. He turned it over to the Director. Interesting....... Let's see what he says or finds out.
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That is interesting. Keep us posted!
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Yepper....would like to know!
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I finally heard from the miserable director of the Elfreth's Alley Museum. They never commerically produced any mugs that he was aware of. I have a feeling my mug is real.
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Then that is GREAT news, greenacres!
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That is VERY cool! I take it he was miserable because you had the mug and he did not?
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I can't figure out what his problem was. I thanked him for all his help, sarcasticly. You would think he would have been a lot nicer. Cry baby! lol
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I was wondering if any of our new members would know anything about this. I wanted to bump it up for that reason. That Antique Roadshow ad wanted $30.00. Forget it! I'm going to email the New Jewish Museum in Philadelphia next, but I thought I would just check.
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greenacres could you post new pics please! (or the old ones) ;)
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Yes !! Please !!
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Sorry, I thought the pictures were still there. These are not great, but here we go.
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Are the photos good enough? I them late the other night.
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The base appears incredibly clean - where has it been stored ?
I think this was made certainly within the last 120 years. There's crazing but a closer look at the pottery and incision tells a different story.
What's the history of the item that you know to be true ? e.g what you've been told first hand.
A Jewish family did live at this address in the 20th century
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My mother in law is 87. Her husband was given this mug as a gift from a person who lived in Elfreth's Alley. They were doing work in the house and found it.
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It has been sitting in a cabinet since. I spoke with Elfreth's Alley Museum and there was never a commerical mug made like this, as a tourist item.
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http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/2597558 (http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/2597558)
That's 19th century and without the glaze to the base, there's obvious signs of ageing.
Your mug looks very ' fresh ' on the base.
I'm going to stick my neck out and say 20's / 40's
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I have to find a maker. There was a Jewish family that lived in the house back then. I researched that part. I can't seem to find the maker.
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I just wanted to keep these two together if anyone wants to see the mug who hasn't. ;D mart, here we go, lol. Want to hear BigWull's two cents, lol.
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I think it's not a fake. The Cline's lived in the house in1850's.
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I,d give you my tuppence worth....but everytime i try to open one of your pics...nowt happens...and i can,t see a joob joob,,,
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I think it's not a fake. The Cline's lived in the house in1850's.
See i'm not sure what you mean by ' fake '. You mean someone made it with the intention of deceiving people it was made whilst he was alive ?
I think it's commemorative. Possibly made to celebrate 100 or 200 years of his birth or by someone studying him - school teachers lived in that residence. I'd still be very surprised if it was mid 19th century. Even the style is wrong
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That's exactly what I believe it is...a commemorative piece!!! A keeper! It has sentimental VALUE, historical VALUE and intrinsic VALUE!!!
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BigWull look at page 3. I wrote back to the women to ask if the Cline family could have been the owner's. They lived in the house in the 1850's. Then I sent her a picture of the inside of the mug also.
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Fake as in newer. She said it still has historical value. I not sure what value is!
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Fake as in newer. She said it still has historical value. I not sure what value is!
Well for me this is more than a hobby - i've been working at auction houses for 13 years - and something like this is quite tricky. Were this just a c1900 mug by an unknown or uncelebrated potter with that message on the side, i think it would be estimated at £60-100 or £80-120 - classic auction house estimates for items that can go either way.
However, the provenance here is very interesting, even if ultimately unproveable. I think it's worth more than that and i would be researching the residents at the relevant places - it's not information that will be readily available on the internet. There's a paragraph on that page which mentions a few names but little background.
I'd be in a library or museum researching this.
Even if not as old as we hope, if it originated from that street then it's a wonderful thing.
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I'll try to research the family itself.
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John FredK Cline came to Philadelphia in 1732. He was 20 years old.
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You said it was inside the wall of the house ?? When was the house built and was the wall intact ?? Unless being repaired not much way to put it inside except at construction !! Or a hiding place was made for valuables ??
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Ann Cutis who was a teacher may have had a husband Henry W. Curtis, potter 122 Swanson st. We never heard of it. Have to check
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The friend found it he said in a wall. Maybe a hiding spot. Not sure.
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Forget that Ann was a widow. Husbands last name was Clay
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OMG! Anne Curtis Clay is the Curtis Center. Cool history. I forgot they were all Quakers then! It was against the law to dance. She was one of the first dance teachers. The "Big" George Washington actually went to the shows.
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http://mysite.verizon.net/handworn/elfreths.html
I'm reading this:
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Cool little item , greenacres !
D'ya think it is designed to hold beer/mead ?
It sure (I don't know the dimentions) looks like a plan for somebody(s) to get hammered , though ; "Yes , dear ... the mug told me to ..." .
Neat research story , so far .
I've got some original Phil documents (newpaper-sized) from the 1870's , census stuff , I'm pretty sure .... will haul them out just to see if there happens to be anything valid on 'em , related to the folks/addresses IMO it's a good thing to have any original (of the time period) docs , v/s the photocopied & such , for a provenance ... give me a few days , please .... they're old & fragile , like me !
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Found the connection, lol ;D Capt. Matthew Cline knew Hyam Solomon. I got smart! ;D Haym Solomon built the first synagogue "Mikvah Israel" in Philadelphia. Cline was a Jew. I checked to see if he was a member and contributor. BINGO!
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The only synagogue in town! ;D Ben Franklin was a contributor.
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You're on a roll!!! :)
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Yes. It wasn't John Cline. It was his son Matthew who may have been married there.
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Yes. It wasn't John Cline. It was his son Matthew who may have been married there.
you may want to substitute the C with a K ..as in Kline..or Klein.as this was the more common way of spelling.this name.... many people and Not only Jewish people did this...as a way of hiding there true origins...my father did it whilst in a POW camp in Italy...the proper spelling of my surname is Omelyash...which is Ukrainian.....but the way its spelt now is Omelasz...which sounds and looks Polish...this was done...because after the war..the Russians were hunting down any Ukrainians that had joined the Germans...so as a means of self preservation...Wasy l Davidovich Omelyash became ...Wasyl Omelasz...had he not done so...I probably would not be sitting here today....
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Interesting because he was Polish.
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Although well prior to the war my grandfathers family dropped the German spelling of their name !! Was Burkhardt and started spelling it Burkhart !! Have no idea why except it was easier to spell !!
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That was common. My husband's was Comisarcyk. Then it was changed to Comisar. It was easier.
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So what date are you now thinking this was made ?
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I'm still not sure. The Cline's only live in the till 1753, so it's confusing. The synogogue wasn't built in the 1780's. I have someone helping me. Hopefully they will get back to me soon. Haym was very famous by 1780. I'm working on it. I have a book I want to look at the I bought several years ago. It's called "Philadelphia, A 300 Year History". I want to see if there is any info that could give any ideas. Then, I wait for the appraiser to get back to me. They are doing some research.
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The way I think is it would have to be somone who knew him back then. It's not a common story they tell. It'sall about Ben Franklin, George Washington, Independence. I wouldn't have ever heard about this if I hadn't found the mug. According to history if you look at the back of a dollar bill there is a Jewish Star, and that was for Hyam Solomon. Who knew! Lol My husband has done major historic rehabs in "Old City" and has never heard of it. If I ask anyone in Philadelphia, I don't think they would know.
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greenacres, Beth Wenger of Univ. of Penn. (Director of Jewish Studies) might also be one to contact. If you read through this 'Snopes report' on the bill the last three paragraphs are about the 'star'.
http://www.snopes.com/business/money/solomon.asp
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Thanks! My daughter works at Penn. I'll look at their web site.
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Without going back and reading all the posts (heading out to work) did you come across the spelling of his name as 'Salomon' ?
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I'm still not sure. The Cline's only live in the till 1753, so it's confusing. The synogogue wasn't built in the 1780's. I have someone helping me. Hopefully they will get back to me soon. Haym was very famous by 1780. I'm working on it. I have a book I want to look at the I bought several years ago. It's called "Philadelphia, A 300 Year History". I want to see if there is any info that could give any ideas. Then, I wait for the appraiser to get back to me. They are doing some research.
But you can research dates and try to connect it with the Cline's, but it could have been a resident in the early 20th.
Like i said before, the base is incredibly clean and unmarked, people didn't really mark their work in that manner until the late 19th century - unless i guess there was nowhere else left to write the address ;D Same for the shape etc
Really hope you're right though.
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Well, Ijust wrote to the women at Uof P. We will see what she thinks. I just find the topic odd. I live in Phila. my whole life and didn't know the story. Plus notice the way I abbreviate Phila., it was different back then, Philada. I should find out when that started. ;D But, it is something I have to look at.
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Ihave several things that have been located in walls that look pristine. I have a Carter's "reel ink bottle w/ label" that looks almost new. Bottles too.
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Beth Wenger is setting me up with an appt. at the Jewish Museum. This maybe the best answer yet.
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The mug has to be from the 1840's - 1890's. Philada. was used in that time period. Haym Solomon was not mentioned in the 300yrs of Philadelphia history. That's how obscure he is.
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Beth Wenger is setting me up with an appt. at the Jewish Museum. This maybe the best answer yet.
Sweet!! Make sure you take notes........and report back ;)
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I will. I have a little nervous excitement. It's the thrill of the hunt! ;D
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Have fun on your adventure!
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Thanks KC! They basically do a strip search at that museum. It's like going to the airport. I've been there. You have to be searched, and remove your shoes, and open your bags and go through a metal detector.
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Wow...which museum is this again?
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The "National Jewish History Museum". It had a gala opening. Jerry Seinfeld was there among many celebs were there.
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http://www.visitphilly.com/museums-attractions/philadelphia/national-museum-of-american-jewish-history/?gclid=CLf14tb2yrUCFc1QOgod8zAAnA
Here you can check it out.
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Next Wed. is the day! I have to be at the museum at 2:00. I have to go through the magnetometer, but they put artifacts through. The women is the Assistant Curator and Cheif Registrar.
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Next Wed. is the day! I have to be at the museum at 2:00. I have to go through the magnetometer, but they put artifacts through. The women is the Assistant Curator and Cheif Registrar.
Arrggghhhhh!! We have to wait another WEEK!! That's just cruel!! >:(
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Next Wed. is the day! I have to be at the museum at 2:00. I have to go through the magnetometer, but they put artifacts through. The women is the Assistant Curator and Cheif Registrar.
Arrggghhhhh!! We have to wait another WEEK!! That's just cruel!! >:(
All good things come to those who wait.... ;D
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Why am I nervous? ;D Maybe excited!
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Why am I nervous? ;D Maybe excited!
This time next week...It may be like all your birthdays have come at once......or it,ll be....Darn!!
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Dr. Beth Wenger of the Univ. of Penn. sent the three photos I sent her to the museum. The museum contacted me yesterday and asked me to send more photos. Then, they asked at my convenience to please come with the mug to the museum. So, we made a date and time. She called it an artifact. Hard for me to believe still.
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Dr. Beth Wenger of the Univ. of Penn. sent the three photos I sent her to the museum. The museum contacted me yesterday and asked me to send more photos. Then, they asked at my convenience to please come with the mug to the museum. So, we made a date and time. She called it an artifact. Hard for me to believe still.
Forget the Negative Waves...think positive and good things will happen.... ;D
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Regardless of outcome.......it's still FUN!! :D
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Definitely! Maybe I should have made I sooner, lol.
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Definitely! Maybe I should have made I sooner, lol.
So now you are a comedian.... ;D ;D
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;D ;D Anticipation! Killing me! ;D
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;D ;D Anticipation! Killing me! ;D
Did I here you say...I wish it was next week....fear not..it,ll come sooner than you think....