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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: coleman on February 02, 2012, 05:15:49 pm
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I have found something of remarkable historic significance.
This is the Dinner Bell that hung over Ceasar Rodneys barn in Dover, Delaware. He rung this very same bell prior to his ride to Washington DC in 1776 for the signing of the declaration of independance. This bell is at least 240 years old.
I have all the provenance that shows who it belonged to, but...Whats the value?
Cole~
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For a piece with this kind of singular historical value, you should consult a certified appraiser. I've never heard of Caesar Rodney -- many probably have not -- so it would likely be of greater value in the area where he lived, or to a local museum, or to a museum dedicated to the American Revolution (such as the DAR museum).
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There is some interesting controversy about Rodney's ride:
http://www.donaldsauter.com/caesar-rodney.htm (http://www.donaldsauter.com/caesar-rodney.htm)
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I would look carefully at your provenance also, since there look to be some later pieces on this bell. The threaded wingnut and the nut under it look like modern machined parts and I would not expect an 18th century hand forged piece to be able to adapt to modern hardware as it would not have had machined threads. Maybe some parts have been added later, but you will want to know what is what before trying to value it.
You will also want to determine the material it is made from. Typically bells were made of bronze, not of brass or iron, as bronze produces a sweeter tone.
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This looks like a much later brass bell !! What provenance do you have ?? If the bell did not belong to him but was just one that he happened to ring,, proving it would be difficult !! Til now I had not heard of this person so his importance would need to be determined to get a value !!
How did you acquire the bell ?? Was this information that the previous owner told you ??
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The bell is cast iron, not brass.
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The article and the picture help, but I think you're going to need to have an expert verify the age. Just because someone said in print that the authenticity is beyond doubt, doesn't quite do it. If its the bell, then getting this done can only solidify the story for you. Keep us posted on how it goes and I'll keep my fingers crossed that it is declared 18th century!
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I agree with the others that it looks like a much later cast iron bell, late 1800s. You're not crazy and the bell most likely is the exact same bell from the article. The problem is that today, in the 30s and since the printing press began, tall tales have been told. I just skimmed over the article, I find it suspicious that they say that the bell has hardware that was much newer than the bell. Almost like they knew that it couldn't possibly be from the period. I agree with the others that an expert should look at it because I would love if you owned such an awesome piece of history! It shouldn't cost too much money and we would all get a little history lesson in the process. Be sure to print out the article and take it to the appraiser. I can't imagine it costing more than $30 or so for an appraisal. Maybe less. Good luck!
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http://www.brosamersbells.com/ Might try this place for an appraisal !! But I think you will need documentation to get historical recognition !!
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Great link, they seem like they would know everything there is to know about bells! $95 is a pretty steep appraisal price but a small price to pay if you consider the history involved.
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Since I live in Delaware near where Ceasar Rodney lived, I have decided to contact the curator of the Delaware Historical Society, to see if she could reccomend someone she trusts to appraise and fully authenticate it.
I have double checked my provenance and have even obtained further documentation about its existence including other pictures from the past.
I will keep you guys posted on what I find out.
Thanks for your help.
Cole~
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You're welcome! We will keep our fingers crossed for you!! You might also check with the Old South Meeting House in Boston. They recently acquired a bell made by Paul Revere and probably have just been through the process of verifying it. They could probably give you the name of a bell expert who could help or recommend someone closer to you. http://www.osmh.org/default.aspx (http://www.osmh.org/default.aspx)
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Interesting.....is this you?
http://www.historum.com/american-history/37817-ceasar-rodneys-dinner-bell.html (http://www.historum.com/american-history/37817-ceasar-rodneys-dinner-bell.html)
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OK maybe its just me but I see little ,historically speaking, about this bell except for those that live in the immediate area !! For the town it is a nice item to have !! But that would be for local history !! Just the fact that he rang it to get his help doesn`t do much for me !! But I have been with hubby all day at the hospital getting a test and I am tired !!
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Hope your Hubby is OK Mart!
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Hope all is well with the hubs Mart!!
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I certainly hope all is well too!
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He is ok more or less !! He has some back problems since his Army days,, couple of breaks,, but only gave problems occassionally and was better in a week or so of rest !! But recently a couple of vertibrae moved out of alignment and is pressing on some nerves !! He has to use a walker because he can`t straighten up and if he moves wrong it can put him on the floor !! I am 5'1" and 112lbs and he is 6' and about 200lbs !! I don`t think that computes to me having to pick him up !! LOL Anyway he had a CT Myelogram done Monday to see what nerves are affected !! Test wasn`t much but we had to drive 80 miles each way and he had to stay in recovery 4 hours after the test !! It was just a long day with no more sleep than I got the night before the test !!
Thanks all for the thoughts !!
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I hope he feels better mart. I broke my back before and have had problems with my spine shifting and pressing on nerves. If I'm not careful about the way I move my spine shifts and I end up on the floor with no control of my legs, pouring sweat and shivering from the shock of the pain. The pain makes my muscles tense up as a natural reaction to prevent further injury but it actually prevents my vertebrae from shifting back to where they are supposed to be and it just keeps constant pressure on the nerves. After I calm down and relax my muscles I can actually feel my vertebrae shift back. If its a really bad shift it could take me weeks or even a month or two to fully recover.
Over time I learned to keep alot of my back muscles flexed all of the time to prevent any shifting and it has been working excellent for me. Its pretty tiring keeping muscles tensed up all the time but I'm back to living a pretty normal life and most people wouldn't even notice I ever broke my back. Every Doctor I see looks at my back and says your having some severe muscle spasms and they try and treat that with meds. They can't seem to understand that I'm making those muscles spasm because thats the only way I can keep my spine from crushing my nerves.
Well anyway I hope he feels better but I figured just incase it was a similar issue your hubby is dealing with that maybe I could explain the only way I figured out how to function.
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Thanks Kevin,, but I think his will have to be surgically corrected !! His vertibrae do not shift and are stuck in one position !! At his age, 79, keeping those muscles flexed might be out of the question !! But at least they said it can be fixed !! Sorry you have a similar problem !! Its not fun I know,, and I hope yours does not get worse !!
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Wow 79! I had no clue mart. I figured 50's or 60's. I can't wait to hear about when the doctors get him fixed up. :)
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LOL !! I am the one younger at 62 !!~ Till last few years we were traveling in our motor home, fishing from lake to lake here in Texas !! But he had colon cancer and a bit of it went to his lungs but 4 or 5 surgeries later it is gone !! Now we just need to fix this back problem !! I don`t think he is going to be on the tractors much this spring !!
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This is a bit closer to the type of bell and hardware I would expect to see. And this one is mid-1800s.
http://seattle.craigslist.org/sno/atq/2845210699.html
First things first - this bell unfortunately has a small crack on the lip that goes all the way through. This obviously affects the value seriously, it would probably be worth well over $1000 if it had no crack. I have no way of knowing how the tone has been affected, but it still rings very nice to my ears. With that out of the way here is more info!
I really didn't know anything about these old bells except the basic knowledge. People call these bells brass or bronze, but really they are a special alloy called "bell metal" which is about 4:1 copper to tin. It gives bells a much better tone and resonance than the other metal mixtures. Pretty much all the info I got on this bell was from a bell collector forum which is this:
The iron rod and rope pull are original. The bell probably dates to the 1830-60 period. It could have been used on a church, school, fire station, farm or plantation, riverboat, or in any public place requiring a bell. More than likely it was not used on a locomotive (wrong mounting) or ocean vessel (stationary instead of swinging). The bell has some features suggesting a Stuckstede bell. The yoke is a bit unusual as it does not fold around the crown and may have been fabricated somewhat later than the original. The clapper attachment suggests a bell from the mid 19th century.
Here are the specs: 40 lbs, 12" diameter bell, 8 1/4" height (just bell), 11" height total, and yoke is 21" wide. Has a great green patina with some rust and other discoloration. It would make a great functional bell as-is or would look awesome polished and mounted. I would normally never recommend removing the original patina but since it is cracked it would be a better candidate than an intact one.
http://gngs.smugmug.com/For-Sale/cummings/19827413_xxSvh2#!i=1598657697&k=4zczGgt
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The last link I posted is not working when you click on it. You have to copy the entire link and then paste it into the search bar.