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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: sapphire on October 15, 2012, 07:42:20 am
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I picked up on this in the chair thread.......
"double zero steel wool should be used...
but not used on oak, because remaining traces of iron may react with tannins in the wood to produce blue or black iron stain. Bronze wool or stainless steel wool may be used to avoid this"
And am wondering if this is what happened to my sideboard when it was stripped at some time in it's life...........and how do I fix/avoid it when redoing?? Are you saying I shouldn't strip it......that the whole thing needs to be done by hand? (please say I don't!!)
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Close up.......
As you can see, it happened everywhere any of the original nails are located :(
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Have not seen pics yet , but if you are talking about the darkening immediately around the nail, that is not caused by any stripper that may have been used or steel wool !! Old nails will do that naturally with some woods !! Later they were coated to prevent it !! I have stripped furniture with all kind of chemical strippers and I personally have never had one to darken !! I used 4-0 steel wool for final cleaning on most all of them !! Perhaps some strippers will do this but I have not run across that problem myself !!
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mart, don't know if the 'darkening' around the nails is the same as the dark black stains radiating out from mine......some darkening I would understand but much of mine extends up to an inch or more out from them.
A customer of mine who restores musical instruments mentioned using oxalic acid to bleach, then a wash with borax and water to cleanse the area. Not sure if that would work or is safe. Whatever the solution, I can see it being a very long, tedious project.
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I picked up on this in the chair thread.......
"double zero steel wool should be used...
but not used on oak, because remaining traces of iron may react with tannins in the wood to produce blue or black iron stain. Bronze wool or stainless steel wool may be used to avoid this"
And am wondering if this is what happened to my sideboard when it was stripped at some time in it's life...........and how do I fix/avoid it when redoing?? Are you saying I shouldn't strip it......that the whole thing needs to be done by hand? (please say I don't!!)
Drat!...and here was me thinking.... :D...this sideboard looks like its been done with a hot air gun, hence the marks that look like burn marks...from holding the gun to close,if it had been stripped using a liquid chemical the degree of staining to the wood would have been more uniform..and over a much greater area...as chemical strippers are non selective....Get yourself some fine steel wool,...stainless or bronze..and try it on a mark that is.nt so obvious....
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Have not seen pics yet , but if you are talking about the darkening immediately around the nail, that is not caused by any stripper that may have been used or steel wool !! Old nails will do that naturally with some woods !! Later they were coated to prevent it !! I have stripped furniture with all kind of chemical strippers and I personally have never had one to darken !! I used 4-0 steel wool for final cleaning on most all of them !! Perhaps some strippers will do this but I have not run across that problem myself !!
4-0 = double zero....i.e.0000
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wullie, if you think this is a nightmare wait till you see the 'repair' jobs done on it by someone who didn't understand the concept of glue..........and was staple gun (and duct tape) happy.
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Well, Staplegun Kelly...as we will call him...tried to take the easy road,..as for that break in the moulding...it is repairable,with a little care...what you need is this stuff...
Brummer Interior wood filler..see link,..it comes in light ,medium or dark oak, and various other colours, its the tin with the yellow label,..the one at the top of the list,..
http://www.woodfillers.co.uk/yellow-label.htm
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Now if only we had it over <here> !! :D
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Now if only we had it over <here> !! :D
...red oak filler its in the US...but they will post to foreign lands...
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Red-Oak-Wood-Filler-Elmers-no-E860-/230822079562?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35be116c4a
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I agree with Wullie !! That was not done with stripper, and it is not a natural thing from uncoated nails !! Heat gun is likely the culprit !! Literally scorched the wood !! Has this had a finish put on ?? Or just a wax or oil treatment ?? Easiest way to treat those stains is to hide and blend in !! Its pretty easy to do !! I have had to hide and blend quite a number of india ink stains on oak furniture !!
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I agree with Wullie !! That was not done with stripper, and it is not a natural thing from uncoated nails !! Heat gun is likely the culprit !! Literally scorched the wood !! Has this had a finish put on ?? Or just a wax or oil treatment ?? Easiest way to treat those stains is to hide and blend in !! Its pretty easy to do !! I have had to hide and blend quite a number of india ink stains on oak furniture !!
What I can't figure is that each and every one of those marks surrounds an old nail. I thought it was possibly from the nail oxidizing from the stripping or the new coat of varnish (whatever they used)......yes, it's been revarnished and not just one coat by the look of it. :P
I do plan on staining darker, originally wanted mahogany.....but I think it was KC who recommended NOT to go mahogany as the color of the oak may cause the 'red' to go orangish. So figured I head towards walnut. That in itself should help with blending, but there is such a terrible contrast that those individual spots (all 100+ it seems) are going to need attention first. I'm going to try this winter to get section by section stripped, as with a parrot in the house I have to be careful not to overload the air with chemicals.
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I was thinking I was seeing something new....agree have never seen a chemical do that.
Have seen a heat gun (and iron) do this kind of discoloration!
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I think the heat gun overheated the nails !! Thats why its around each one !!
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So I could likely be dealing with burn marks rather than a chemical reaction?
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So I could likely be dealing with burn marks rather than a chemical reaction?
Did,nt you read my first reply.... :D...heat gun....hellooooo is there anyone in there!....what you can do is punch the nails deeper,fill in the hole,s try and remove as much of the marks as pos,by sanding with a fine sand paper,you can,t stain it mahogany..as the grain is wrong....you might get away wiyh walnut....
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Sapphire, those black splotches were caused by “oxidation” (rusting) of the iron in the nails, probably due to a high humidity (water) environment ….. and not by any heat gun, stripper or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
The correct name for that discoloration is “black iron oxide”.
And here is one opinion and their instructions ... for what ya gotta due iffen you want to try fixing your problem, to wit.
How to Remove Rust Stains When Refinishing Wood
http://www.ehow.com/how_4474703_remove-rust-stains-refinishing-wood.html (http://www.ehow.com/how_4474703_remove-rust-stains-refinishing-wood.html)
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Did I miss something here....what Flying Spaghetti Monster......"Black Iron Oxide....sounds like a Rock Band..... ;D ;D
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(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTDPejOwcjCRpC6U4lAkmSptoBB6mCi8mb9tpr8B5N9TC4qDemAqA) Boy did I learn something new when I searched Flying Spaghetti Monster...... Whew!
cogar...I agree that it could very well be iron oxide stains...but just can't believe the furniture would have been that "wet" to have it seep that far into the wood. However, the more porous the wood...the further reaching...and it must have happened during "restoration". I believe it got a double whammy somehow... (Sorry, pondering out loud....too much....)
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I have dealt with oxidation and its not too difficult !! That was my first thought too !! But I have never seen oxidation extend that far away from the nail !! Now its possible that its a combination with the two !! Whatever stripper they used could have reacted with the nails, then with added heat expanding the wood, it seeped outward !!
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I have dealt with oxidation and its not too difficult !! That was my first thought too !! But I have never seen oxidation extend that far away from the nail !! Now its possible that its a combination with the two !! Whatever stripper they used could have reacted with the nails, then with added heat expanding the wood, it seeped outward !!
I'm just hoping it didn't seep that much inward :P
OMG you guys are a hoot! I swear someone could have a beautiful piece fall apart in their hands and you would all still be able to make them chuckle. ;)
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no point in being despondant...what,s done is done...you,ve just to make the best of a bad joke.... ;D ;D ;D
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no point in being despondant...what,s done is done...you,ve just to make the best of a bad joke.... ;D ;D ;D
wullie, this sideboard has so many giggles your sides would be splitting ;)
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Sapphire,, that last pic pretty much says that it is a chemical reaction with the nails !! See how a few places are dark below the nail ?? Either it ran or was wiped downward !! Those at the top look like normal oxidation !!
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no point in being despondant...what,s done is done...you,ve just to make the best of a bad joke.... ;D ;D ;D
wullie, this sideboard has so many giggles your sides would be splitting ;)
this should be joining the queue...waiting to get into my woodburner....oak gives off good heat...it would be a shame to waste it..... ;D
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no point in being despondant...what,s done is done...you,ve just to make the best of a bad joke.... ;D ;D ;D
wullie, this sideboard has so many giggles your sides would be splitting ;)
this should be joining the queue...waiting to get into my woodburner....oak gives off good heat...it would be a shame to waste it..... ;D
Alright you..............go stand in the corner!! >:(
;D
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no point in being despondant...what,s done is done...you,ve just to make the best of a bad joke.... ;D ;D ;D
wullie, this sideboard has so many giggles your sides would be splitting ;)
this should be joining the queue...waiting to get into my woodburner....oak gives off good heat...it would be a shame to waste it..... ;D
Alright you..............go stand in the corner!! >:(
;D
...Yes!..Mam!...three bags full Mam!.....Oh...which corner ?... ;D
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I have seen such marks pretty often in my time - the culprit in most cases was one of those old, highly toxic paint strippers. The stripper literally split iron residue from the nails and had it bleed into the surrounding wood. Those stains are not real 'rust' (iron oxide, FeO) but 'iron stains' (Fe) which is sometimes incorrectly called 'black iron oxide' (misleading, as the OXIDE part is missing). Very hard to remove as they often reach deep below the wood surface.
Note: those stains are the reason for the old general rule to NEVER use metal tools when working with those high toxic paint strippers. Not only the old nails, but also hinges and of course the tools all ruined the woodwork. Many people therefore took the water approach: slap the stripper on the item, let it work, then remove the stripper and old paint with water and a course scrubbing brush (of course wearing gloves during the process). That procedure works like a dream with real oak, etc. (done enough of it while restoring 300 year old doors and wall panels, I can tell you!).
Either you slap some covering paint over the whole thing or you really have to invest MUCH manual work, as each stain would have to be treated independently. First, all nails would have to be removed, reason being that if you sand the areas down, you once again transport iron residue into the wood. Same goes for chemically bleaching the stains - the bleach once again attacks the nails. Hence they have to be removed before you start treating the stains. Slapping the nails deeper in the wood will not really help as they are the reason for the discoloration and are bound to create the same affect again (over time) when or after the surface is/was re-treated.
Next to sanding the wood down with either sanding paper or non-corrosive wool (stainless steel, brass, etc.), most people forget the typical restorer trick: glass. Regular window panes of thin sheet glass do not break in straight lines, but always in curved shards. These can be easily utilized as scraping tools (as you wear gloves anyway) and work miracles when actually having to clean up wooden ornaments normally too complex to allow the use of prefabricated (out of the box) tools. The sharp edges of glass shards can also be used to carefully scrape off the top layer of the discoloration; I sometimes even managed to remove some of these stains completely (one of course has to increase the working area around each stain to avoid creating 'pits' in the wood), however I always sanded down the whole surface afterwards and thus created a flat surface once again. My rule of thumb was to treat flat wood like that, while applications were removed and bleached (pretty often, I had to come up with a 'drying rack' contraption to keep the removed applications from warping under the influence of water, stripper or bleach).
Just my two coppers, seven Yen, whatever ;)
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However, the more porous the wood...the further reaching...
You got it, KC, you got it, .... you got it.
That sideboard is made of White Oak which is one of the most porous of wood types.
As a matter of fact the porosity of White Oak is what makes it so famous and literally loved by tens of millions of people around the world.
Uh, … uh, … actually its not the oak they love so much, ….. it’s what that oak contains when it is shaped like this, to wit:
(http://mcginnisbourbonbarrels.com/images/whiskeybarrels.jpg)
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However, the more porous the wood...the further reaching...
You got it, KC, you got it, .... you got it.
That sideboard is made of White Oak which is one of the most porous of wood types.
As a matter of fact the porosity of White Oak is what makes it so famous and literally loved by tens of millions of people around the world.
Uh, … uh, … actually its not the oak they love so much, ….. it’s what that oak contains when it is shaped like this, to wit:
(http://mcginnisbourbonbarrels.com/images/whiskeybarrels.jpg)
White Oak...are you having a bad day Cogar...that sideboard is no more white oak..than I am a Chinaman.....oops!..I,ve just fallen off my seat..LOL!.LOL!..LOL!..furthermore...as for Oak..being porous...where did you get that idea...Oak was used in shipbuilding ..think all of the British ships of the line...in the 1800,s.....Nelsons Victory....still floating today....i, think i,m going to get a seat belt fitted to my chair..LOL!
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Go Chris!
Schooled!!!! :D
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Mixer!!..... ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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What I would do with stains this bad is just to hide and blend as it is !! I have removed or lightened normal oxidation with denatured alcohol but don`t think it would work on this one !! Artists oil paint and a few brushes will blend it in so it hides well !! Light varnish over top and buff all together so no extra shine !!
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(Reply #27) Note: those stains are the reason for the old general rule to NEVER use metal tools when working with those high toxic paint strippers. Not only the old nails, but also hinges and of course the tools all ruined the woodwork.
As the old folks use to say, …. “Different strokes for different folks”.
Now I have repaired and refinished a lot of wood items during my past years and have used probably a couple dozen different types of “strippers”, paint & varnish removers, etc. And for “scraping” tools, …. just about anything I could get my hands on that would “do the job”.
But now the “stripper” you use depends on the type of “finish” you are trying to remove and the type of “tools” you use depends on the type of “wood” you are working with, plus, …. the type & direction of the “grain” of that part of the wood from which you are trying to remove the old “finish”.
Anyway, when used correctly, I have never experienced a problem by use of metal tools and three (3) of my very favorites if refinishing a piece like Sapphire’s oak sideboard would be my “bent & ground-sharp” screwdriver, my mowing machine “cutter-bar” knives and a “steel” wire brush.
And as far as any reaction to metal tools, hinges or nails, I personally would not be worried about the “high toxicity” of any paint strippers …. unless it could only be purchased in glass or plastic containers. ;D ;D
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(Reply #29) that sideboard is no more white oak..than I am a Chinaman.....oops ……
Now Bigwull, your gonna confuse a lot of people by such comments who don’t comprehend the difference between when you are stating factual information and when you are just voicing your witty satire.
Thus, for the above mentioned "people", to wit:
Quercus alba, the white oak, is one of the pre-eminent hardwoods of eastern North America.
White oak has tyloses that give the wood a closed cellular structure, making it water- and rot-resistant. Because of this characteristic, white oak is used for barrels for wine and whiskey production since it resists leaking. It has also been used in construction, shipbuilding, cooperage, agricultural implements, and in the interior finishing of houses.[3]
It was a signature wood used in mission style oak furniture by Gustav Stickley in the Craftsman style of the Arts and Crafts movement.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quercus_alba (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quercus_alba)
And ps, those whiskey barrels are not exactly 100% air and water tight, to wit:
When a wine or spirit ages in a barrel, small amounts of oxygen are introduced as the barrel lets some air in. Oxygen enters a barrel when water or alcohol is lost due to evaporation, a portion known as the "angels' share".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrel)
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Chris,If I may call you that,...I am somewhat confused,....which is not uncommon for me at time,s what with,having to contend with different ways of spelling,and with,some people who don,t know if there here, there.,..or everywhere,.and want what we try to give them...set in stone.....
but now to the question in hand...you stated and I
quote;..(That sideboard is made of White Oak which is one of the most porous of wood types)...the colour of oak aside....whether it be white, red, medium or light,I discard dark because we both know it is,nt, is of no importance.....what is important...is its "water resistant properties"......now i do know enough about wood in general, having served my time as a Carpenter,and with also having had an uncle who was a Cooper,....and i do know about things like the "angels share"...when it comes to storing whisky...and i also know that even well seasoned wood , like oak,...in fact almost all woods, do absorb water...when first used,especially in shipbuilding....but once that absorbing process is over...the wood in question...is as water resistant as it will ever be,and therefore it is not the most porous of woods....
as for .".my witty satire"........this statement...in itself....may confuse...as it has various definitions..one of which is... satire - witty language used to convey insults or scorn,.....now i will admit...that i do not suffer fools gladly..and am not afraid to speak my mind.....but i prefer to call what i write.at times ...witty..anecdotes ....
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I personally do not see the type of oak as a problem and like Cogar I have used all types of tools and most were metal !! I have never seen nor had a problem like this from what I have used no matter the wood type !! But that is not to say it doesn`t happen !! I would not dispute others experiences with it !! But it could be that whoever refinished this one used his own concoction and/or used a combination of chemicals that caused this !! I do think that the stains on this are way too deep to be removed by sanding or similar methods !!
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Having looked at these marks again...what i find confusing.."my favourite word of late"..is the sporadic way in which these marks have appeared...now it is being mooted that where these stains have occurred, is where there are nails,and that this oxidisation, has happened because of whatever chemical process has been used,..it has caused the stains,..but looking at the top of the sideboard...i do not see nails being used in securing the top to the frame,..cabinet makers would not face fix...all the fixings would be from underneath the top,and the same can almost certainly be said of the rest of this sideboard...further more,if it established that some form of chemical stripper has been used...i would expect a more general staining to have occurred...but this has not happened...i like Mart, am of the opinion that these unsightly stains may well benefit from a light to medium sanding,starting off with possibly an 800 grade sandpaper...then with a 1000,...1200, ...then finishing with 0000 stainless wool,...then it can be varnished with a colour enhancing varnish...of choice......
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Well,, Never let it be said that you can`t learn from TV !! Was watching Restoration Roadshow and they were working on similar stains on an oak piece !! Didn`t say what caused them,, but oxalic acid was used carefully applied to the stain only and it removed all traces of the stain !! Like this piece they were pretty bad !! So maybe a light sand and an application of oxalic acid will remove these !! Shouldn`t be difficult to find it if its commonly used !!
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So what your saying is, it is possible to teach an old dog new tricks......."Not that i,m saying you,re a dog"...i thought i,d better add that, just in case it was mis-construed.... ;D
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Here you are...readily available...and as they would say..just what the doctor ordered...
http://www.woodfinishsupply.com/OxalicAcid.html
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Don`t worry Wullie,, it wasn`t !! LOL And yes !! We can still learn a few things !!
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Well now, Wuffie, in that you admit to being somewhat confused on the wood issue of my post … I will forgive you for addressing me as “Chris”. Like the ole fellow said, .. better to be addressed than undressed. ;D ;D ;D
Anyway, Bigwull, when I made the statement that …. “White Oak which is one of the most porous of wood types” I did so because I …. uh, … uh, …. also do know enough about wood types in general and their individual criteria specifically, having served many hours as a student of nature, a carpenter, cabinetmaker, re-modeler, restorer, refinisher and a student of Botany …. to know that all wood types do in fact have the capabilities of absorbing and transporting water. And I was not specifically speaking about water absorption when I stated the above “porosity” thingy, Said comment was in reference to the “tubular” size of the wood “grain”. The larger diameter the “grain”, the more porous the wood.
The technical name for said “transport” mechanism is “xylem”, which is commonly known as “growth rings” and/or “wood grain” depending on the view, and which is a “tubular” structure for transporting water and nutrients between the roots and the tree canopy. Different species of trees have different size xylem tubes, which is often referred to as “loose grain” or “tight grain”. A tree grows a new xylem layer at the start of each new growth season, but the older xylem still retains considerable moisture, and thus the reason firewood and new sawn lumber should be “air” dried or ”kiln” dried for lumber, before using. The xylem transports said water via capillary action, thus anytime the grain ends are exposed it will either absorb or excrete water depending on whether its environment is wet or dry.
Given the above, oak has rather large grain, pine has a little smaller, whereas maple has extremely small grain. Thus, if you are going to apply a stain to “new sawn” oak or pine, you best first apply a “wood filler” or their open grain ends will “suck-up” the stain faster than you can wipe it off …. resulting in “dark and light areas” that can only be cured by putting the wood back thru a planer. But with maple, ya almost have to let the stain dry on top of the wood, except for the “end” cuts.
Bigwull, I hope that was less confusing for you ….. even though I did get quite “mouthy” in my response.
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Well now, Wuffie, in that you admit to being somewhat confused on the wood issue of my post … I will forgive you for addressing me as “Chris”. Like the ole fellow said, .. better to be addressed than undressed. ;D ;D ;D
Anyway, Bigwull, when I made the statement that …. “White Oak which is one of the most porous of wood types” I did so because I …. uh, … uh, …. also do know enough about wood types in general and their individual criteria specifically, having served many hours as a student of nature, a carpenter, cabinetmaker, re-modeler, restorer, refinisher and a student of Botany …. to know that all wood types do in fact have the capabilities of absorbing and transporting water. And I was not specifically speaking about water absorption when I stated the above “porosity” thingy, Said comment was in reference to the “tubular” size of the wood “grain”. The larger diameter the “grain”, the more porous the wood.
The technical name for said “transport” mechanism is “xylem”, which is commonly known as “growth rings” and/or “wood grain” depending on the view, and which is a “tubular” structure for transporting water and nutrients between the roots and the tree canopy. Different species of trees have different size xylem tubes, which is often referred to as “loose grain” or “tight grain”. A tree grows a new xylem layer at the start of each new growth season, but the older xylem still retains considerable moisture, and thus the reason firewood and new sawn lumber should be “air” dried or ”kiln” dried for lumber, before using. The xylem transports said water via capillary action, thus anytime the grain ends are exposed it will either absorb or excrete water depending on whether its environment is wet or dry.
Given the above, oak has rather large grain, pine has a little smaller, whereas maple has extremely small grain. Thus, if you are going to apply a stain to “new sawn” oak or pine, you best first apply a “wood filler” or their open grain ends will “suck-up” the stain faster than you can wipe it off …. resulting in “dark and light areas” that can only be cured by putting the wood back thru a planer. But with maple, ya almost have to let the stain dry on top of the wood, except for the “end” cuts.
Bigwull, I hope that was less confusing for you ….. even though I did get quite “mouthy” in my response.
What has all of the above...got to do with the price of Carrots..... :-X
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It made them more affordable and thus one can better see the err of their assumptions. :-* :-* :-*
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I think you should intentionally put iron oxide marks all over the piece and make the whole item spotted (like a dalmatian)! Call it an exotic wood!
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I think you should intentionally put iron oxide marks all over the piece and make the whole item spotted (like a dalmatian)! Call it an exotic wood!
OMG, you're getting as bad a wullie!! :-\
:D
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I think you should intentionally put iron oxide marks all over the piece and make the whole item spotted (like a dalmatian)! Call it an exotic wood!
OMG, you're getting as bad a wullie!! :-\
:D
:'(I,m not a Bad person.....honest!....trust me!...I,m just a retired wood butcher....who, sometime,s just open his mouth and let,s his gums rattle... ;D ;D
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LOL !! As a last resort,, not a bad idea !! Definately would be different !! One of a kind !!