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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: frogpatch on July 03, 2013, 07:48:06 am
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My wifes father passed recently and the family has been cleaning out the house. Both her natural parents were Greek although her mother passed when she was 6 and her father remarried. Up in the attic was an old big leather suitcase which contained letters and cards mostly sent to her grandparents in the 1930s and 40s and a few items that were a little older or more recent. In that box we found this Greek Icon which must have belonged to her grandparents. It is silver on wood and depicts the Holy Family with cutouts where their faces show through. Joseph is depicted as unusually old I noticed. On the back is writing but it is all Greek and no one in her family reads Greek. My wife can only speak a few words although she went to Greek School in New York when sh was young. I have a few questions. How would you clean the silver? With regular silver polish and hours of elbow grease? Can anyone read or translate anything it says? What would you do with that old suitcase? It is all leather and use to be light tan. I was thinking shoe polish or saddle soap.
I will be posting more items that were discovered in that case and other places.
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I needed to move this ahead of the duplicate that needs deletion
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i,m not so sure that,the writing is Greek....here,s a passage in Greek.....its very different from yours....
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I have to agree with you Wullie....searching on this one!
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Wullie, I see that although that looks almost like Greek calligraphy. Here is a practice page for someone learning the upper and lower cases. Some seem to match but not all. The only thing is they were all Greeks except for my wifes Grandmother on her Fathers side who was born in Russia, came from Poland and apparently spoke German according to the post cards received from her Brother in Poland. I don't think this is Russian or Polish. I have to look up how Icons were presented in the Greek Church.
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The text on the back looks like Greek, as do the stamps.
The Greek you've posted, Wull, is an ancient script.
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its all Greek to me....and anyway...you never know if you,re coming or going with them.....a shake of the head frome side to side means yes....and a nod up and down means no.....then there the way they ride their scooters/motorcycles,....dad mum, 2 kids and the dog....and not a helmet between them....and thats without a sidecar.....but they do a mean kebab...
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Can you take two clearer images, Frogpatch ?
I'm going to have this translated. Looks to me like someone has written provenance / history on the back and it has a museum or customs stamp on it.
Look for a number stamped in the edge somewhere.
Wondering if it might be a Russian derivative - need clearer images
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Absolutely Ipcress. Unfortunately I am stuck with only an IPhone. I was a film guy and my winder broke. A digital is not in my budget right now. Thank you so much. I really appreciate the help. I was ready for a trip to Astoria Queens. It will be in the morning when I have good natural light.
Wullie, its sounds like Greek to me too. Why did I know you would say that? Try the Spanikopita and Dolmades. And of course the Gyros (Pronounced Yiros) Kali Nichta.
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Ipcress,
Here are some clearer pictures as promised. I had do do it in sections. I hope you can piece it together. Thanks again.
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Thanks, Frogpatch. Outside in the sunshine at the moment so screen is too bright to look in close detail but will have a gander later. Just interested to see the history of it - doubt value is eye opening unless there's history in those marks / words.
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The nails are modern wire brads. The faces are hand painted. I think it is a reproduction of a Byzantine Icon made in the 20s or 30s. They seem to sell in the neighborhood of 200.00 to 300.00. The newer ones do not wrap around the board. It may have been given to my wifes grandparents when they were married or possibly brought from Greece. Hopefully you will find a clue. Thanks
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Wait till Ipcress looks at that back before you do anything to the icon,, but after that if you clean it,, just use a good silver polish and a terry cloth to get in the crevices,, then soft cloth to polish !!
Suitcase would be helped with some saddle soap, soft brush, and then when clean you can use a neutral shoe polish to protect it !! Light or matching color polish if you want to even the color a bit,, then buff well !! Didn`t look too dry on pics !!
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Definitely not Russian! (Someone earlier made mention.)
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Been having a look at the printed stamps and it's a government stamp, one of the ministries i think.
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I put a few words into translate and it comes up Slovak. But when I enlarge the letter...the handwritten part...I am seeing what I believe could be some cyrillic letters.
"Cyrillic is derived from the Greek uncial script, augmented by ligatures and consonants from the older Glagolitic alphabet and Old Church Slavonic for sounds not found in Greek. It is named in honor of the two Byzantine Greek brothers, Saints Cyril and Methodius, who created the Glagolitic alphabet earlier on. Modern scholars believe that Cyrillic was developed and formalized by early disciples of Cyril and Methodius." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrillic_script
On one of my trips to Russia I brought back a religious piece and it had to be inspected and approved to go out of the country, now has a form and seal. This attests that it isn't a national icon piece (aren't allowed out of country for cultural purposes AND so many that are attempted to be taken out are radioactive). This is also required in many countries.
My seals/form
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" definitely not Russian ! "
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:P Ipcress.. LOL I am backtracking a bit.... But some of the letters don't look the same. However, there are variations of the original Russian alphabet in different countries.
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Yeah, i know that. Various forms of the same alphabet and Greek and Russian have similar letters. However, most results i got for the stamp were Greek / Cypriot
Shouldn't be long before i hear back about the handwriting.
I can speak French, German, a bit of Spanish, Italian and Czech.
Any further east and i'm guessing ;D
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Thanks Ipcress and KC. I am impressed by your knowledge and experience. I can only go by what I know from my wifes heritage, which is they were as Greek as Greek gets. Except for that one grandparent. Picture a Greek family living in Atlantic City and all of them going to the Eastern Orthodox Church every week and getting married there. I am sure that the writing is some form of Greek as you said. I wish I could read it. If you can decipher anything, I would really appreciate it. Thank you again. You guys rock.
As a dealer of old stuff for decades, something like this makes me realize how little I know. Anyone who thinks differently is too conceited to ever grow in knowledge.
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LOL !! Can you imagine a Texas drawl and Greek language !! Laughable !!!
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Teekanis y'all.
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And what does that word mean ??
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Are you trying to say "How are you?" in Greek with a US accent? LOLOLOL (Ti kanis)
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I think he was trying for a Texas accent KC !!
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yass boss, isa comin...or perhaps a peh an a pint wid be better,..there,s nowt better than washin a peh doon wi a pint o, heavy.... ;D
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A poor attempt Mart. Yes,Tikanis means how are you in Greek. I speak a few words from my Father in law. Most of them are things to eat. I love Greek food. We get to celebrate two Easters and I usually gain about five pounds that time of year from the Baklava and Galaktoboureko. Here Mart, or anyone else with an inclination towards baking, try making this. It is way too difficult for me. I buy it and bring it home from the Greek festivals. It is to die for when made correctly.
http://greekfood.about.com/od/phyllopastriesbaklava/r/Custard-Phyllo-Pie-Recipe-Galaktoboureko.htm (http://greekfood.about.com/od/phyllopastriesbaklava/r/Custard-Phyllo-Pie-Recipe-Galaktoboureko.htm)
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seeing as how you are a great lover of Greek...food....may be you can tell me what this tastes like.....its been in my cupboard for yonks..but its still in code until 2014...
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I have eaten octopus grilled, smoked, marinated in salad and in pasta sauce and it is very firm yet tender and tastes pretty good if you can deal with the suction cups. Not like anything else I have eaten so it is hard to describe the flavor. Canned octopus is usually very tender and often smoked. Musky Octopus describes the species that is caught in the Aegean Sea not the flavor. Did you buy that after a couple pints and then lost your appetite or your nerve the next day? Try it. Be sure you have an ale to chase it with.
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i got it in a local delicatessan,along with stuffed vine leaves...and Greek Nougat with almonds....and....t he vine leaves were tasty,as was the nougat...i,ll let you know what i think of the octopussy.....tomor row.......if i,m still alive..... ;D
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I love stuffed vine (grape) leaves along side of feta cheese and calamata olives and a wine called Retsina. Retsina tastes like pine tar if you drink it without feta cheese. It is a weird combo but it works.
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Since pine tar is a common medicine for deep cuts on horses,,,Kinda blows the idea of drinking anything that tastes like it !!
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Taken from one of my favorite websites called Wise Geek
Retsina is a unique wine product made almost exclusively in Greece. It is made with a base of white or rosé wine that is flavored with pine resin. The wine is quite pungent, and not to everyone's taste. However, the Greeks have been making and drinking it for over three thousand years, and people often find it more enjoyable when it is paired with Greek foods. Retsina also varies widely in quality, and an inferior product can taste suspiciously like turpentine. Consulting the staff at a Greek wine store may be the best way to find a good wine.
The name for retsina is derived from a Latin word, resina. The official explanation for the drink has it roots in early wine making practices. Lacking airtight containers for fermentation, many early white wines soured as a result of exposure to oxygen. To stave off this problem, wine makers covered their wine jugs in pine pitch, the same material used to waterproof boats. The pitch effectively sealed the containers so that the wine did not spoil, and consumers developed a taste for the resulting resinous wine.
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i,ve had Retsina....not a fav, i enjoyed Metaxa....octopussy is for my supper...washed down with an ice cold Stella,.... ;D
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I have an interesting Greek story. In my hometown, there was a restaurant owned by the Pettus family (Greek family, who were good friends with my family). They had everything but also had Greek food that was amazing!!! When their eldest daughter married the wedding was amazing...food and dancing beyond compare.
Back to the story, Mr. Pettus brother, who lived in Greece had committed a crime that required him to go to prison (I am sorry I don't remember the crime...will ask my dad later if he remembers). The law in Greece allowed that Mr. Pettus in the US (oldest brother) could go and serve the time for his brother in Greece. So, Mr. Pettus went and served several years in prison for him. Still amazes me!
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That is an amazing story. Talk about brotherly love. Is that true for all crimes? Imagine if we did that. John Gotti's brother serving his sentence for him? Scary!
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There is classic Greek lettering on the front that I uncovered after cleaning. Does anyone know how to interpret this. I was able to determine many of the letters but I still have know idea what it means.
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Just means The Nativity or Birth Of Christ.
Still having that handwriting looked at FP. Person is on holiday. Had it been engraved i could do it but handwriting requires better knowledge of the language
If you want to research yourself, copy and paste this text
" η γεννηση του χριστου "
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Ipcress. I really appreciate the effort you are putting forth. This is part of my wifes genealogy which I have been trying to dig out. This could offer a clue beyond her Grandfather. That is the extent of her knowledge. I am going to contact a local Greek Orthodox Church to see if there is an elder that may be able to decipher the writing. Thanks again for your help.
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I had a look at the inscription on your nice icon, that I think is from late 19th/early 20th c. It shows some western features in the painting style of the faces, that is why I do not think it is older. The stamp is, as the others said already, of a greek ministery, most likely of culture, but that part of the stamp has vanished. It says "Export is approved" / Number (of the Ministerial Decision that is needed for Export) / Minist -ery or -er).
The text written on the back is some kind of letter. The first line must be some salutation, but I can not read that yet. Then it says: "I send you this holy icon [here follow two words I cannot understand] / as a gift for [ the birthday ?] .... The rest I have not deciphered yet, but I will show it also to others that are natural speakers.
Regards,
Mat
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Thanks Mat. I really appreciate that. I agree with the dating. The nails that hold the wood backing are wire brads. If it were any older they would have been cut nails. I am surprised that Joseph looks about 60 years old. The face painting is of very good execution and detail. You can't see a brush stroke unless you look with a loop. I hope that your speakers can add something. It is a mystery and my wife would really like to know more. She supposedly has a house left to her in Athens but she has no idea if it is still standing or where it is. That will be the next mystery to try to solve. Her Grandfather used to say "you have a house in Greece" but that was all he would say.
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Sorry, I meant "native speakers" ;D
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I know what you meant Mat.Thanks