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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: gregauc on August 09, 2014, 03:50:09 PM
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I have an antique plate from my Great Grandmother. It was given to me as a child and held onto by my parents and just now is the first time I've actually taken a look at it. It's absolutely beautiful and the artwork is incredible. The colors are bright and it looks like it was done yesterday, although I'm sure its quite old.
The front of the plate is a portrait of Napoleon. It reads "Bonabarte 1769-1827" There are some markings on the back and a date of '97 which has to be 1887. I'll attach pictures.
If anyone has any information on this plate or how I can go about finding out more I would be so grateful.
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Hey people sorry for the double post! I had originally attached 5 photos but the file sizes were too big and I somehow must have ended up posting twice.
Here is an album of the photos I was originally trying to attach. http://imgur.com/a/BBFb5
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Yes the pics are too big !! If you reduce the size to about 2000kb they will load easier !! I will try the link !!
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Couldn`t see any pics on that link !! Just post a good clear pic of the mark on back here !! The other pic is OK !!
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Hey mart
I'm not sure why the album isn't showing up, here's a different link: http://imgur.com/a/BBFb5/all
I attached a picture of the back with the markings, I wasn't sure how to resize and apologize for the load time! Trying to figure out how to resize right now and will re attach if I do.
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Where is the 97 ?? Pretty sure this a Japanese reproduction !!
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Picture of the '97!
Thanks for taking a look!
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The number 7 is not written in the European style !! I enlarged the pic to see the detail and it is not very well done !! Let some of the others look at it but I think its a Japanese repro !!
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Thanks again for your input mart I'll research the typical European style of the time period! I appreciate your opinion and it's possible it is a very old reproduction. It was not made in 1997 though it has been in my mothers possession since 1988, the year I was born.
The back of the plate has pits and discoloration which doesn't seem like something a high quality plate would have, please correct me if I'm wrong.
Attaching a pic of the back of the plate in full.
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You are correct, they have been making repro`s since the 1800`s !! Perhaps some of our members will help that will be able to read the mark !! Japanese is not my strong point !!
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Did anyone else notice that it has written "Bonabarte 1769 - 1821". Whereas the correct spelling of the name is Bonaparte (with a p not a b) if for Napoleon Bonaparte and his DOB/DOD are 1769 - 1821.
The colors are beautiful and love the design of the plate. Still a nice family keepsake! :)
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Some of the stem from the P has been rubbed off. Look a cm below the " b " and you'll see it. Definitely written as Bonaparte
Faience. Images aren't very clear for the marks but the base centre appears to have rubbed or wiped intentionally ?
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And your opinions ??
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I've done some small research on different 7's from the time period and have come up with tons of different styles from tons of different regions, some that look similar and some that don't.
I actually believe it does read "Bonabarte" with a "b." That mark about a cm below the "b" seems to be an imperfection. If you zoom in on the cursive it appears to be one continuous line.
If it is a reproduction I'm not disappointed as it's been in my family for a very long time and the only thing I have from my Great Grandmother. It's value isn't important I would just love to learn more about it.. unless it would pay off my student loans, that would be something to consider of course!
Thanks again for this discussion and all of your input!!
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And your opinions ??
Looks a bit odd
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It clearly is a b instead of a p !! Is the mark on back a Japanese character ??
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I don't think they are Japanese or Chinese characters. It looks like a K and C on one. and the other looks like it has T and S and C. I've been trying to research symbols from the time but have found nothing.
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It's a letter P, Mart. No one is going to write Bonabarte on the plate.
The monogram could be CK / KC / KG / GK.
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Certainly very odd but I agree it reads "Bonabarte." I have searched for this spelling and nothing comes up. Does anyone have any idea of a language in which a "P" could be lost in translation and turn into a "B"?
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The only time I have seen items misspelled on items such as this was when they were produced in countries that the written word wasn't in their language!
Lets look past the spelling for now....has anyone else seen a picture of Napoleon with this look/style/hair?
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Not on porcelain - the image of Napoleon with longer hair is much scarcer
My point about the spelling ends here - there are about 7 results on the whole of Google with Bonabarte, a few of which are from image transcriptions where mistakes are fairly common.
Masses of research material which suggests it's a p with the stem partly erased.
However, i don't think it's a valuable item.
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...Lets look past the spelling for now....has anyone else seen a picture of Napoleon with this look/style/hair?
http://www.metmuseum.org/collection/the-collection-online/search/436408 (http://www.metmuseum.org/collection/the-collection-online/search/436408)
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Good researching there Rauville...
There are a number of pics of Napoleon with long hair...
Here's something intriguing though:
These very similar plates pictured below are by Victoria Porcelain - Schmidt & Co. / Austria / Circa: 1891-1918
There is no doubt re the similarity of the rim patterns.
I don't have time atm to go into this further. But your plate may be a Victoria Porcelain by Schmidt - or may be a reproduction.
Repro's/Ripoffs can occur in the art/antique world - and I'd be sceptical of the spelling "Bonabarte"
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Good researching there Rauville...
There are a number of pics of Napoleon with long hair...
Here's something intriguing though:
These very similar plates pictured below are by Victoria Porcelain - Schmidt & Co. / Austria / Circa: 1891-1918
There is no doubt re the similarity of the rim patterns.
I don't have time atm to go into this further. But your plate may be a Victoria Porcelain by Schmidt - or may be a reproduction.
Repro's/Ripoffs can occur in the art/antique world - and I'd be sceptical of the spelling "Bonabarte"
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Thanks a lot for that info Jedo. I've been busy with work the past couple days, but when I get time I'm going to look into Victoria Porcelain by Schmidt.
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Had some time this morning decided to look up Schmidt Co. and came across this plate.
http://www.artfire.com/ext/shop/product_view/SWhiteVintageinFL/6404595/victoria_austria_schmidt_andamp_co_dessert_plates_hand_painted_roses_/vintage/antiques/_75_to_100_years_/housewares
The water color painting on the front looks very similar and that is quite intriguing, but I also found their stamp.
http://www.artfire.com/uploads/product/5/595/4595/6404595/6404595/large/victoria_austria_schmidt_andamp_co_dessert_plates_hand_painted_roses__d9562fe7.jpg
The website says "Mark is Victoria over a Crown with Austria underneath - mark is reported to have been used between 1904 and 1918." If the plate was made in 1897 it could have a completely different symbol. I have a marking on my plate that looks IMO to be an SC with a T above it. Maybe could possibly be Schmidt? Quite a long shot but I will try to dig up what the symbol looked like pre-1904.
Again thanks to everyone trying to help me out!