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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: jacon4 on November 26, 2015, 08:18:00 am
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Estate sale of Kristina Barbara Johnson, you know, the lady who hired on as a maid for the band-aide guy and then married him, Johnson & Johnson, who had a pet tortoise named George that once belonged to the court of Queen Victoria. The big things in her estate sold last Jan. at Christies but the things that didn't make the cut in that sale are on the block in a few days, among them this table.
I am always on the hunt for early southern pieces, even if they have messed up feet because after all these years i only have 2 early southern pieces, they are hard to come by because of the circumstances in the south (war & climate).
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Beautiful table. Is the top all one piece? The feet look mid to late 19th century.
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Something bad happened to the feet! The top, legs and drawer are original to the piece. The top is pinned. Doubt the top is 1 piece, hard to tell with the splits in it though.
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What the feet SHOULD look like on a period Virginia table of about 1710-1730
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Naturally, that small virginia table above with original feet is......$37,500.00
At least, that's what they are asking.
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That style of table would be late 17th, early 18th in the UK. Had one with a similar cross stretcher and turned legs which made several hundred GB but it had been altered but had the original bun feet, i think.
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Hey Ipcress, HAPPY THANKSGIVING! or whatever they have in GB. The william & mary style (1690-1730) was not popular in the american colonies and almost none was made outside seaports/urbane centers so there is very little of it here anywhere and in the south land, VERY RARE! This auction is in Philly so i am guessing the table above with bad feet to go very low, say a couple hundred or so. Most collectors take one look at bad feet and are not interested, the fact that it's a southern piece which i am counting on few if any to notice is only reason i want it.
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We don't have Thanksgiving :-[
We've allowed Halloween to infect our society over here but the food, the thanks, the drinks...always appealed to me, no doubt helped by watching Frasier, Friends etc. My dad's partner usually cooks me a consolation meal of mashed and other taters, fried chicken, corn, pancakes which are like latkes, homemade slaw, halloumi ( which you should try if you haven't already )....she's a damn fine cook.
Can't wait.
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We don't have Thanksgiving :-[
Well, sounds like you are making out OK without TG though, here in america, TG is a VERY BIG deal, biggest travel day in USA.
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Once you get enough turkey, are you going to bid on the table, feet and all?
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lol, actually, i had prime rib roast. Yes, i will go a couple hundred or so when it comes up in a few days, it really isnt worth alot because the feet. Course, if it had it's original feet and it being southern, it would be wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy y outa my price range. Generally speaking, southern early pieces go for more than new england pieces because there are so few of them.
If i am correct and this table is southern, there is only a couple of places it could have been made, coastal virginia (williamsburg area) or charleston sc and, i am betting it was virginia because of the yellow pine secondary on drawer.
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Darn,, I think we all should go visit Ipcress,,!! Most of that sounds like a very southern meal !! Don`t know what that last one is but bet its good too !! Throw in a nice apple pie or peach cobbler and it would be perfect !!
I assume those bad feet were surgically removed !! I don`t think it looks bad at all !! Is that left front leg skewed a bit or is it just the way the pic looks !!
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I agree Mart...we should go! :)
Ipcress, does she fry the Halloumi? Love fried cheese! :)
jacon4, thank you for sharing this treasure hunt with us. Still a beautiful piece, feet and all. Would love to know the story behind the feet...I am sure there is one!
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Is that left front leg skewed a bit or is it just the way the pic looks !! I think it's just the pic
Hard to say what happened to the feet, SOMETHING MASSIVE! though. I am guessing they were sawed off just above original stretcher rail and flat X stretcher & new feet doweled into leg block. Why this was done i have no idea unless one or more of original feet were damaged beyond repair, it is a very old table so anything is possible.
Kristina bought this table at Parke Bernet Auctions in 1960 so she had it a long time, this auction house was purchased by Sotheby in 1964. I tried to find the catalog of that auction to read this tables description but could not, online at least.
Auction is in 2 days, hopefully no one has noticed it is an early southern table, the description reads "early american tavern table", which, it is that.
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The “stretcher” on that table intrigues me in the way it was made of 3 different pieces of wood, Is it also “pegged” together or do you know?
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Cogar, don't know anything about that X stretcher except it is not original, in a period piece it would be pegged, difficult to tell with photo's alone. The william & mary style was not popular in america, i don't know why, maybe to 1700 americans, it was just a bit to baroque for american tastes. Queen Anne on the other hand, the next furniture style, was a smash HIT! There is A LOT of american period QA furniture around, both north & south, both city & country.
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It's just to damn BAROQUE! for America! in 1700 anyway.
Spice chest C. 1700, NY, all original, feet, legs, pulls, lock & key. The only thing not original is the finish.
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Liking that!!
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lol, yeah, the bad news is, if you have to ask how much...............
Perhaps americans just were not ready for such a RADICAL style change, from chunky pilgrim style joined furniture to dovetailed dainty W & M, whatever the reason, americans were not into it.
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Jacon4,, I have seen that stretcher style before,, can not remember where or on what but I do remember it !! I thought it was odd that it didn`t fit the piece it was on !!the Have to think about that and try to clear the brain fog !!
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The X stretcher? Like this one that is original?
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I agree Mart...we should go! :)
Ipcress, does she fry the Halloumi? Love fried cheese! :)
jacon4, thank you for sharing this treasure hunt with us. Still a beautiful piece, feet and all. Would love to know the story behind the feet...I am sure there is one!
Yes ! The halloumi is fried.
All of that will be devoured tomorrow afternoon.
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(In a Homer Simpson voice) "Mmmmmm.....fried cheese! ;D
A beautiful table. For some reason it fascinates me.
About the feet.....I wonder if the originals got wet for an extended period of time? I've seen it happen more than once.
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Tables, chairs, etc. that sit on a dirt floor for very long will result in the bottom portion of a leg or legs to rot away.
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True, dirt floors and wet feet are a killer for early pieces, no doubt. It's why so many early pieces are an inch or two shorter than when they started out.
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The X stretcher Like this one that is original?
Yes but the one I remember was a much simpler table and without the finials !!
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I would not give this piece the time of day if it wasn't southern, it's really the only reason to consider this table. Also, i am counting on no one, except the people who have read this thread to realize that this table is southern, probably virginia, about 1700-1730 or so. The feet are a very big deal to most collectors of early stuff and while it's expected they will be shorter or ended out a couple of inches, sawed off and completely rebuilt is a big no no. Today is auction day, may the force be with me!
I WON! if it's not southern, i am gonna be upset!
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Congratulations! ;D
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Thanks! I am going to get it here, strip it down and get all the goo off it and see where i am located!
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Congratulations! Hope it is all you want it to be and much more!
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_QQDAENTIcPs/TKSNee4U_yI/AAAAAAAALZc/KtayndoAR2I/s1600/yabba-dabba-doo-.gif)
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Glad you got it Jacon4 !! Waiting for your assessment after it arrives !!
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Yeah! me too! I didn't pay much for it, $375 with BP, shipping about $200 so around $600 total to get it here. Cheap, but, it really needed to be considering the feet. Garth's had their annual TG auction over the weekend and they had a period boston chippendale block front chest of drawers in very nice condition save one thing, it had replaced feet. Period block fronts are rare and valuable, chests of drawers with original feet go in the 20k to 25k and up range but with replaced feet? It went for 5k so there we have it, feet are a big deal in the american antique furniture world.
I think ghopper is correct, the feet on this table got replaced sometime in the 19th century, they are clearly not new but, they are clearly not original either.
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Lets talk about feet! and how it really does effect value on early pieces of american furniture. In the example below, i had to shell out 5k for this first half 18th century TT mostly because the feet are original, yes, they are an inch or two shorter than when new but, the fact that they are there makes this a $5000. table as opposed to a $1000 table if the feet were not there.
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Here is another example, first quarter 18th century TT, the dealer is asking 28k for this table and again, the feet are a couple inches shorter than when new but, if the feet were not there, dealer would be lucky to get 5k for this same table. Bottom line, feet are very important, ditto the tops of tables when it comes to value on early stuff.
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Lets talk about feet! and how it really does effect value on early pieces of american furniture. In the example below, i had to shell out 5k for this first half 18th century TT mostly because the feet are original, yes, they are an inch or two shorter than when new but, the fact that they are there makes this a $5000. table as opposed to a $1000 table if the feet were not there.
Is that pull original ?? Would not expect that type !!
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No, pulls are not original on dealers table but that's OK value wise, ditto if drawer has had repairs to runners. Those are considered non structural items and do not harm value much, when you lose the feet or top though, that's a structural repair and value goes WAY DOWN.
The pull on my table is original, the dealers table, no, pulls are not original
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Why not expect wooden pull? Metal was expensive back in the day, it was also mostly imported from england at that time which didn't help the price. Indeed, nails were so valuable that in the 1600s, the Virginia House of Burgesses passed a law granting the owner of a house or barn, "the same quantity of nails as it took to build" it. Why did the govt. give out these nails to homeowners who decided to move to another location? To prevent them from burning down the building & sifting through the ashes to recover the nails!
I only have one piece of early furniture that has the original ( and likely imported) brass pulls, this blanket chest from Hadley Mass. area C 1690-1720
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Oh !! Its a wooden pull ?? It didn`t look like it,, that's why I asked !! On my monitor it looked like a modern metal pull similar to what you see on kitchen drawers !! And the same color as those in my kitchen !! That fake pewter color !!
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Made me giggle Mart! I do agree that the dealer's handles do look like "Pewter repros" that I have seen lately - But don't think they are.
Beautiful piece that you have there Jacon4.
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On my monitor it looked like a modern metal pull similar to what you see on kitchen drawers !!
LOL, no, it's shiny from the flash and well worn but most pulls that are original from this period were wooden pulls. The dealers table with brass pulls, in description does not mention "original pulls" which means, they are not original. I'll try and take a close up pic later today of one of the original brass pulls on my blanket chest, front and back so you can see how hardware was installed back in the day. The front of the pull is brass but the back of the pull that attaches to back of drawer or case is iron wire and hammered into the wood. No screws, no nuts so it's very easy to determine on a piece this old if pulls are original or not as it scars the wood. Once that iron wire is hammered into the wood, it's like a fingerprint and that's THAT, it can never be replicated again and easy to see up close. Even though it does not effect value much, i am VERY happy my blanket chest has the original brass pulls, a good break for me.
On the dealers not original pulls, it doesnt say but i would think those pulls are made in the same way as original ones were, cast brass fronts with iron wire hammered into back of drawer. You can still purchase pulls today that were made in the same way they were 300 years ago, not cheap though, a lot of hand work involved as would be expected.
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one more time I'll try, then i am taking a hammer to this puter!
FINALLY!!! god almighty, that took awhile! Pics taken this morning on my galaxy 6 phone so quality isn't great. As you can see from back of drawer pic, the iron wire, which is pointed on each end, is bent at 90 degrees and hammered into the back of drawer. The whole length of wire plus the point makes an impression in the wood which can never be replicated again. Easy as pie to see if you have original pulls with 300 year old stuff, there were no nuts or bolts used to attach brass pulls back in the day.
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LOL, YOU CAN'T MAKE THIS UP!!!
So today, the shipper shows up with "my" table only there's a teeny tiny problem, it's not my table! The trucker sez what???? You are kiddin, right? NOPE, they gave you the wrong table!!! He gets out his paper work, there is a small pic of mine in the shipping bill of lading and he says, "yeah, it looks different but hey, i don't look at this stuff, i just wrap & ship what they give me". Oh Yeah, call the auction house, not open on the weekend, lovely. This is the table they gave shipper, lot # 26, my table is lot # 29.
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/42524991_antique-iberian-table
Lot description says....."Antique Iberian Table. Possibly late 15th early 16th C. Size: 30" x 42.5" x 28" (76 x 108 x 71 cm). Provenance: Kristina Barbara Johnson Estate, Princeton, New Jersey."
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Oh !! That will not go with your decorating scheme !!
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yeah, big boo boo here, no doubt. I wonder if the guy who bought this table has mine sitting in his house? Weird deal all around, never had this happen before, i've never even heard of this happening before.
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Never heard of that happening, either. Still, your "replacement" table is pretty cool in its own right. ;D
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Is this a "Buyer Beware"? ;)
So sorry that happened!
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Oh no, it's not a buyer beware kinda deal. Auction house in Philly screwed up BAD! simple as that and, they will have to fix this at their expense. Trucker said that he picked the table up friday afternoon, the guy who brought it out to loading dock was in a hurry, didn't wait while trucker wrapped a blanket/stretchy plastic stuff on it so it wouldn't get any damage, all of 5 mins, locked up warehouse and left before trucker even loaded it. Since auction is closed on weekend, guesses the auction guy was in a BIG hurry to get his weekend started.
Weird thing is, i have already paid for table/shipping and i have someone else's table here. Yeah, it's not a bad lookin table, it sold for 3 times more than mine did but it's just not what i was looking for or want. Never mind the guy/gal who bought this table, is pretty sure they won't be happy to see my southern table show up if it's in transit somewhere.
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Yepper. Let us know how it works out!
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Yeah, I was all excited this Sat when i got the call that he was within an hour of my location, rushed home, waited till he arrived. He opened the door to truck and i see 4 feet sticking up, joined by a BOX stretcher and i say, wait a min. do you have another table in here? he says what? no, i don't have any more tables.......
Thus began the saga.....stay tuned.
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Hopefully you were able to get ahold of them today! 😣 😳
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Yes, was, they were very apologetic, said they would send a shipper at their expense with my table and pick up one that's here.
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Good for them !! No one is perfect,, auctions make mistakes same as we do !! Good thing is they made it right !!
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Yeah, i guess. Kinda killed off my lil fantasy though, i had already gone to store and got a gallon each of stripper & alcohol ready to do battle with this table. What I know so far is, it has yellow pine in secondary drawer construction, it has a single large dovetail on drawer, the top is pinned, these factors all point to an early piece, say first quarter 18th century. What i do not know is the primary wood species, the description says "fruitwood". Now, when someone tells you fruitwood, what that really means is, they have no idea what kind of wood it is, it could be cherry, apple, pear, etc.
Now, according to my fantasy, the primary wood is cherry, which, according to the the latest research, was used in early Virginia furniture. This chair below, once thought to have been built in Charleston SC is now almost certainly proven to have been built in coastal Virginia. How did this researcher begin his quest to find out for sure? The cherry primary wood, it always bothered him that the attribution & date for Charleston was wrong because cherry was not used in early Charleston furniture. This turned cherry chair was built in the Chesapeake region Virginia, C 1640-1660 and is in fact the earliest known piece of southern furniture extant. Indeed, this chair could very well be the earliest known piece of American furniture ever.
http://www.mesdajournal.org/2015/provenance-profile-rediscovery-earliest-southern-chair/
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Mmmm,,, looks pretty good for that age,, has there been any restoration done on the chair ??
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Don't think it is sat in very much Mart so it looks that good! :)
Well....maybe the anticipation and wonder will be well rewarded once you get your treasure! Did the other person who got your table call them or do you know?
Like Mart said, wonderful that they made it right. Kudos to the auction house!
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I don't think there has been any structural restoration but i don't really know, i could check, it sold at Christies a few years ago when it was still a "Charleston" chair to the Houston Museum for what is now a real bargain, 288k. If the recent research is anywhere near correct & i think it is, this chair is now in the priceless category. The feet have lost a couple inches but that's "normal" for a piece this old. It's cherry which makes it look different i think in color photo, here is another pic of the same chair. I don't know if my table was shipped but it didn't sound like it was when talking to auction house, i think it's still in warehouse.
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It's here, FINALLY! came last night, Christmas Eve just before midnight .
I was fooled, i would have bet money, actually, i did bet money that the secondary wood on the drawer was yellow pine, it isn't, it's white pine. Has already got the top off and stripping it down, a few repairs, a new finish and place it somewhere, hopefully not in MISTAKE ROOM! The old woman had this table for 50 years, i think this is what they refer to as "container goods" shipped over from England by the boat load in the 1960s. It's old but it's NOT american and that makes all the difference.
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Oh no !! Bummer about your table !! I have mentioned those containers being shipped from the UK but don`t think many believed me !! Many are advertised as American by those that do not know the difference !! And I have known dealers (not good ones) that sold them as American !!
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Sorry about your table but hope you like it anyway! AND that it was worth what you paid! :)
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Didn't believe you about container goods? how come i wonder, it was BIG BUSINESS once upon a time. Actually, i think it is still being done although probably not what it once was. There are many USA dealers who specialize in european antiques so there is still a market here for that type of old furniture.
Although disappointed table is not american (dang limeys!) for $300, how can you go wrong? It is mostly early 18th century william & mary and there is some good figure in the 2 board wood top, it should clean up nicely. Get some repro W & M brass pulls (you can see on back of drawer it originally had cotter pin pulls) to replace those hideous wood ones and it will look good. It's small so no worries about using as a lamp,side, etc type table.
This demonstrates why photo's alone can not be trusted when it comes to old furniture, even with all our technology there is still only one way to really authenticate old furniture, in person. There simply is no other way.
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Mostly its the younger generation that have inherited items that the grandparents purchased during those days !! They just refuse to believe that they are Imports from the UK that were purchased for pennies on the dollar and not worth that much today !! I always hear" Its been in the family forever" !! Or "Its been in the family for generations" !! Of course mid century is antique to them !! They believe that age = money !!
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Well, when one considers that in the 18th century, America was still sparsely populated and in the UK, by comparison, a very large middle class population that needed/wanted/demanded all kinds of material goods, furniture being in that group, it's easy to understand how that trade developed. By the 1960's it was a BOOM time for that business, there just wasn't enough American antique furniture to meet demand so hey, lets just import from the mother country and make everybody happy!
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Until Mart stumbles along and destroys all that happiness! And during the holidays to boot! Keep that up and we may have to SMITE you!!!
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LOL !! Shame on me !! >:(
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Jolly good laughter on that one Mart! Bah Humbug!
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Meanwhile, my southern table is almost fully stripped now, that X stretcher is original to the piece, not sure about the feet yet. The wood species i think after getting all the gunk off it is......... ENGLISH PEAR! and the top as well as X stretcher has very nice figure/curl/burl.
Is Martha in here talking bad about my Pear table again? I will SMITE her!!!!!
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Oh No Jacon4 !! I rather like the little table !! However,,,from now on I will think about your adventure with the southern (England) table every time I look at our pear tree !! ;D
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Getting pretty feisty there Mart! LOL
Mart, Hope you/your pear tree is faring well in this crazy weather! The weather hit pretty hard between/south of the two of us...saddened by the loss of lives and homes. Keep Safe!
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Tell you what, i have never seen Pear wood used in cabinets before but i am impressed. Matter of fact i don't think i've seen pear used for anything. I am thinking i'll just put a clear finish on the entire table with no stain at all.
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Well, I am a southern lady,, we are all feisty !!
That pear tree is 30 years old at least and usually has more pears than I can use and a few other families plus my 6 horses !! Two years ago it was hit with fire blight as well as everyones fruit trees,, thought I was going to lose it !! But it rallied back and had a few pears this year !!
Post some pics of your table when you finish it !!
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Well, i refinished my "southern" pear wood W&M table last winter, southern england, right? I replaced those hideous wood pulls and after i got all the gunk off the table discovered that it is all original except for a repaired back left portion of X stretcher.
This is why when Cogar posted "The “stretcher” on that table intrigues me in the way it was made of 3 different pieces of wood"..... it IS made in 3 pieces, the back left part of X stretcher was replaced. Other than that and quite a few dings, it's good to go! I didn't stain it, just a clear finish, i like the pear natural.
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Well dang, i rotated pics in my photo editor but forum program doesn't show it.
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You did a great job at refinishing. I really like the looks of it. :) :)
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I like it too !! Nice work !! Nice table,,now !!
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Beautiful job!!!
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Thanks! It turned out well, a decent, period W&M table, the only problem? it's english!
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I took the liberty of rotating your pics.
I love this table!!!!!!
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It's a beauty, and a wonderful job of refinishing.
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Thanks Raven !! Looking at anything sideways is a pain in the,,,,,,neck !!
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Thanks! Pear finishes very well, it's a dense hardwood. First time i ever messed with pear but i am impressed, it's a pinky-salmon colored wood and i left it natural. It has some nice figure on the top but you can't see it in these pics, european pear is a very sexy wood!
http://www.hearnehardwoods.com/hardwoods/exotic_hardwoods/exotic_wood/pear_lumber/pear_wood.html
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I thought I got up early but you beat me Jacon4 !! I didn`t get up till 3:30 !! Been watching the debate re-runs !!
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Yeah but Texas is an hour behind EST i think, so 3.30 there is 4.30 here
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Been watching the debate re-runs !!
Who won?
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LOL !! Depends on who you ask !!
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Been watching the debate re-runs !!
Who won?
Certainly not the American public.