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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: ghopper1924 on November 15, 2016, 09:48:25 am
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Good thing I don't have to use the word "pilgrim" with this!
Ahem. Anyway, this box is from England ca. 1620. It's oak, with two locks (one "blind"), and sits on 4 hand-turned feet. The feet are unusual. They are clearly hand turned, but most boxes from this time period don't have feet, so maybe they're later? If they're additions, they're old ones! Also, the trim around the bottom of the trunk is clearly later, probably from the 19th century. It measures 14" deep by 23" wide by 13" tall.
The description that came with it is: "A fine and very rare early Jacobean oak silver chest/hinged top opens to a plain interior/foliate carved front panel, on simple turned feet." It was bought by an American from Kansas City from a seller in Oxford, England (which doesn't necessarily mean it was made there) in 1970.
What are your thoughts on value?
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Good thing I don't have to use the word "pilgrim" with this!
Thank God, It's an american term!
Hmmmmmm, i am not so sure about 1620, the color is awful "light", it should be much darker. It's a boarded box, i don't see scribe marks for layout of carving. Course, it is english and out of my field of interest & knowledge, where is what's his name that lives in GB, he should be able to help out here.
Here is link to Jan & John antiques page, they specialize in early english oak, saw 2 boxes for sale there recently
http://www.jmaggs.com/Furniture-Gallery.htm
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On a higher end of scale is Marhamchurch antiques in GB, he sells a TON of early english oak pieces, on 1st page of current stock is listed 9 early boxes for 2900 lbs
http://www.marhamchurchantiques.com/current-stock/all/
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Weeeeeel, the photos were taken under 240 watts of electric light with the sun coming in the windows, so it looks pretty light.
I do have the receipt from The Bazaar in Oxford dated 1970. The description comes from him.
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On a higher end of scale is Marhamchurch antiques in GB, he sells a TON of early english oak pieces, on 1st page of current stock is listed 9 early boxes for 2900 lbs
http://www.marhamchurchantiques.com/current-stock/all/
Wow, great price! I love Marhamchurch.
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Yeah, good guy and knows his english oak. He's VERY conscious about marketing to the states and Yanks via a Thomas Dennis connection in Devon england, where Dennis served as an apprentice before coming to america. Look for sales next month at marhamchurch, he offers 50% off and more depending on object to clear his inventory out.
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Those feet came from another piece and were modified for this chest !! You can see they were turned at some point but the bottoms have carving marks that says they were made smaller for this application !! Is that bottom trim added to the chest or is it a part of an added bottom for the feet ?? English items are difficult to date because they tended to use the same methods for longer periods than here in the US !! They did not like change !!
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Nice piece.
Love the Marhamchurch site.
Please explain to me why this is a silver chest grasshopper1924. I have seen some fine boxes like this over the years and they were explained as linen boxes, spice boxes, etc. As a lover of most things silver...I would like to learn about this. Thanks!
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Those feet came from another piece and were modified for this chest !! You can see they were turned at some point but the bottoms have carving marks that says they were made smaller for this application !! Is that bottom trim added to the chest or is it a part of an added bottom for the feet ?? English items are difficult to date because they tended to use the same methods for longer periods than here in the US !! They did not like change !!
Do you think the feet are as old as the box? The trim around the bottom was added...probably in the mid 19th century.
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Nice piece.
Love the Marhamchurch site.
Please explain to me why this is a silver chest grasshopper1924. I have seen some fine boxes like this over the years and they were explained as linen boxes, spice boxes, etc. As a lover of most things silver...I would like to learn about this. Thanks!
KC: That is the name given to the chest by the Oxford dealer. The inside is plain,so no help there. Perhaps it's because of the greater height? If you look at the link for the multiple boxes that Jacon posted, those boxes look quite a bit shorter. Therefore: more height, more silver? Just a guess.
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Love the Marhamchurch site.
Yeah, THE place to purchase early english oak, no doubt! Particularly at his year end sale event where much of his stock is sold off at cost! Where are our limey people? would have thought they would have posted by now.
English items are difficult to date because they tended to use the same methods for longer periods than here in the US !!
True, up to a point. To an experienced english early oak person, you can pretty much tell what part of GB the piece came from and the period it was made by the carving patterns. Take Thomas Dennis as an example who apprenticed in england, his carving in america is VERY similar to the shop in england where he learned the trade.
Value
Generally speaking, early english pieces do not have anywhere near the value that similar pieces that are american do. This is most likely do to the rarity of early american pieces, there just were not that many of us here in the early years compared to GB and so the supply of early objects is MUCH smaller.
I would guess $500 or so for this box in today's market. I do not think the feet are that big a deal even if not original, they could easily be removed. Additionally, it is not unusual for pieces that are hundreds of years old to have repairs/alterations to their original form, matter of fact, quite normal.
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Feet and trim probably added at the same time !! If just the feet alone you could see where they were attached and that they were not original. The trim was added so you couldn`t see under it so well !! Now why they were added is anyone`s guess !!
Silver chest was a blanket term for any type of chest for small valuables !! Could have been a few pieces of silverware or coins or anything else they considered worth money !!
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Good thing I don't have to use the word "pilgrim" with this!
Thank God, It's an american term!
Hmmmmmm, i am not so sure about 1620, the color is awful "light", it should be much darker. It's a boarded box, i don't see scribe marks for layout of carving. Course, it is english and out of my field of interest & knowledge, where is what's his name that lives in GB, he should be able to help out here.
Here is link to Jan & John antiques page, they specialize in early english oak, saw 2 boxes for sale there recently
http://www.jmaggs.com/Furniture-Gallery.htm
And the Victorians loved to alter and carve extra designs on these things.
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And the Victorians loved to alter and carve extra designs on these things.
Yes they did, particularly in england. They ruined many a period piece with their "improvements".
Jack Plane, who is very well versed in early english furniture writes a blog i read, did a post on "Vicobethan" alterations, it's rather shocking to see this sort of thing, WARNING!!!
https://pegsandtails.wordpress.com/2014/11/29/picture-this-xxxix/
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And the Victorians loved to alter and carve extra designs on these things.
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Yep.
But to their credit, they may have been hamfisted but alot of the Victorians genuinely loved 17th century stuff.
Kind of like people in the mid 20th century putting aluminum sheet metal facades over Victorian buildings. Hideous!
Well, I'll be honest with y'all. If Jacon's value is right, then I took a bit of a hit on this. Nothing major, but kind of disappointing. Good thing I love the box anyway! ;)
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I could be wrong! I did have a typo the other day and had to suffer a couple of stump jumpers tormenting me!
But, in looking at marhamchurch boxes currently for sale, i'll stick with the $500 number, there is simply A LOT of early english pieces available which hurts value, particularly when out of fashion, which is presently the case.
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Well I think the feet are wrong, I don't like that trim on the base and I think the carving is later but furniture on photos is a tricky one.
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furniture on photos is a tricky one
Agrees, pic's lie when it comes to furniture, i am not sure why exactly but cameras just miss stuff that is apparent when examined in person. If the carving is later, that would harm value, no doubt about it.
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Totally agree ipcress and jacon4 about the camera bit. It's amazing how on some things more flaws/details will show up and on furniture/others it is the total opposite.
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A good photo of a porcelain item without glare on the surface and i'm fine. Even a painting is better than furniture.
Colour of the wood, surface wear etc etc etc Hardware can look fine on a photo but in person was obviously applied later.
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Another thing to keep in mind about early boxes or early furniture in general, if it's American, you can get away with MUCH more in terms of condition. Take Ruth's box, a rather sad episode of mine years ago, entire bottom was REPLACED! lock REPLACED! entire box REPAINTED! auction estimate was 1-2k, my first & only bid was $4000. from the get go and I was blown out of the water, box went for over $8000.
You could NEVER hope to get that price from a similar condition english box, not gonna happen!
I would add, this incident took place in 2010, at the height of great recession when antiques were supposed to be cheaper, only god knows what that box would bring today.
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Isn't that amazing that all of those alterations are made and it is still worth so much!
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Isn't that amazing that all of those alterations are made and it is still worth so much!
Yeah, is, i was stunned. My strategy going into sale was different than usual, my plan was just to overwhelm others by a single bid, take my best shot while bidding was still in the mid-hundreds, 600-700 or so, i posted 4k on bidder screen, BAM! i am taking this box home with me folks, you can all just move along to another object!
WRONG!
That is what is so different about early american furniture, it's very rare to start with, add in each object is unique and, it's very hard to get a handle on what the price will be, total crap shoot really. One thing for sure, nobody that counted gave a damn about condition as far as Ruth's box was concerned! And that is really weird in the antique furniture world.