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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: craigconewbie on August 24, 2018, 06:43:08 am
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It says "Warranted General Washington Handmade"
It seems to be woven and embossed. It is 4.5" high and 8" long. Maybe the thickness of one, probably not two sheets of printer paper. And it has some weight to it, I'm thinking maybe silver?
Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.
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I think what you have is a “printing plate”.
To wit:
https://www.lifewire.com/printing-plates-information-1073825 (https://www.lifewire.com/printing-plates-information-1073825)
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I don't think so. It's really fragile and as flimsy as a piece of cloth.
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I would maybe think it might be a fancy "Cigar box / humidor label"?
http://libertycigars.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/washington-2.jpg (http://libertycigars.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/washington-2.jpg)
(A printing plate should have a "mirror image".)
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You would think that a cigar fancy enough to have a "silver" label or logo would show up in the cigar databases online. I have checked at least a half dozen and nothing shows up for General Washington.
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"(A printing plate should have a "mirror image".)"
OOPS, ….. my bad, …… t’was thinking ….. ‘thin, flexible & silvery”, ….. n’ logo/trademark citing “WARRANTED” and “HANDMADE”….. and printing plate came to mind.
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I am not sure this item is as old as you may think !! Even though it is silver colored I doubt real silver was used to make it !! I wonder if it is some sort of shrink label !! Where did you find this ??
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It was found in an large, old book from the 1880s (which doesn't prove it age) between the pages, I assume for protection. The back looks identical except the words are in reverse. It is definitely metal (rings up on my metal detector, but because of the size and shape the signal bounces around with no definitive reading as to the metal type). Shrink label in my mind means some sort of plastic, is that what you were implying?
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MMetals are used in some paints,, not the film itself !! But that was just an idea !! I have looked everywhere and nothing shows it to be a product line or a brand name !! Of course its possible that whatever it was intended for just never materialized !! Or it did and this type label was too expensive to use !! There is absolutely nothing that I have found that even gives a hint !!
Just curious but what book did you find it in ?? Perhaps there is an idea there !!
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I have also come up completely blank in my searches. It came out of a large tome called Picturesque America, Edited by William Cullen Bryant, 1872. I don't think there is any connection.
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If I had it,, I would cut a tiny strip from one edge and hold it with tweezers in front of an iron set on high just to see what happens !! If it melts or anything similar,, you would know its probably 20th century !!
If you are close to a large city,, maybe take it to a museum and see if they have an idea !! Check out Mt Vernon Historical Society !! They may know what it is,, send pics if you can !!
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Aaah, …… the clues are mounting up to wit:
It is 4.5" high and 8" long
It seems to be woven and embossed.
Maybe the thickness of one sheet of printer paper.
And it has some weight to it, I'm thinking maybe silver?
The back looks identical except the words are in reverse.
It still has the potential of being a “printing plate” for offset printing,
Or, it could be a “printing screen” for screen printing, to wit:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screen_printing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screen_printing)
ell, I not afraid to ponder a guess or two. ;D ;D
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The "sheet" is way to soft to be a printing plate. I'm sure that if I applied enough pressure to the "logo" you would smooth it right out so as to be non-existent. Sort of like taking a blunt object and writing on a piece of foil, then taking a round cylinder type object and rolling over the foil, the impression you just made would disappear. (I am not saying it is made of foil, it is to heavy for that.)
And for being a printing screen, the "weave" is way to tight. When you hold it up to the light, you can't see through it.
Tonight after work, I will try to weigh it and compare it to equal sizes of paper, foil and whatever else I can find. Maybe that will give a clue, maybe it will be a waste of time.
I really appreciated everyone's thoughts and guesses. Someone will eventually recognize it as something they have seen or heard about in the past.
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Actually a screen printing fabric has to be light because when the lamp is on it shines through the fabric and only leaves the image of the covered and darker area !! These are literally sort of burned in !!
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Light doesn't go through this.
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Craigconewbie, this is how you describe your “mystery” object, to wit:
It is 4.5" high and 8" long
It seems to be woven and embossed.
Maybe the thickness of one sheet of printer paper.
And it has some weight to it, I'm thinking maybe silver?
The back looks identical except the words are in reverse.
It is definitely metal (rings up on my metal detector
Now, Craigconewbie, ….. I just hafta ask you, ……. just how many “work hours” ….. and just how much “would it cost” (materials and labor) for a person or company to produce just one (1) of said items?
And given your estimated “cost” for producing said “item”, would it be prudent to produce THOUSANDS of said “items” to be used as “logos” or “brand insignias” to be placed/affixed to manufactured products?
A curious mind would like to know.
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Cogar,, Did I miss a post ?? I didn`t see any estimation of cost ??
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Craigconewbie, this is how you describe your “mystery” object, to wit:
It is 4.5" high and 8" long
It seems to be woven and embossed.
Maybe the thickness of one sheet of printer paper.
And it has some weight to it, I'm thinking maybe silver?
The back looks identical except the words are in reverse.
It is definitely metal (rings up on my metal detector
Now, Craigconewbie, ….. I just hafta ask you, ……. just how many “work hours” ….. and just how much “would it cost” (materials and labor) for a person or company to produce just one (1) of said items?
And given your estimated “cost” for producing said “item”, would it be prudent to produce THOUSANDS of said “items” to be used as “logos” or “brand insignias” to be placed/affixed to manufactured products?
A curious mind would like to know.
I understand your question. But what if the said item was attached, mounted or in some way part of a display to sell something. You wouldn't need thousands (one attached to each product), just one for each display case.
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From the description and the fact that the back side is a reverse I believe this is a printing plate.
Thus, it is flexible to go around a drum printer?! or a stamp plate.
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"The "sheet" is way to soft to be a printing plate. I'm sure that if I applied enough pressure to the "logo" you would smooth it right out so as to be non-existent. Sort of like taking a blunt object and writing on a piece of foil, then taking a round cylinder type object and rolling over the foil, the impression you just made would disappear. (I am not saying it is made of foil, it is to heavy for that.)"
It wouldn't survive 10 prints let alone 1000s.
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The "sheet" is way to soft to be a printing plate. I'm sure that if I applied enough pressure to the "logo" you would smooth it right out so as to be non-existent.
It wouldn't survive 10 prints let alone 1000s.
Craigconewbie, when you have dug yourself into a hole, quit digging, and use Google to help you out, ….. to wit:
How printing works
Offset printing also transfers ink from a printing plate onto paper (or another material), but instead of the plate pressing directly against the paper, there is an extra step involved. The inked plate presses onto a soft roller, transferring the printed image onto it, and then the roller presses against the printing surface—so instead of the press directly printing the surface, the printed image is first offset to the roller and only then transferred across.
Offset printing stops the printing plate from wearing out through repeated impressions on the paper, and produces consistently higher quality prints.
Read more @ https://www.explainthatstuff.com/how-printing-works.html (https://www.explainthatstuff.com/how-printing-works.html)
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I give up. I have seen and handled printing plates. This is not a printing plate.
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I have no clue,, stilll say take it to a museum or someone that may have an idea of its use !! They see much more than we do !!
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This is one of those items that a hands-on inspection is needed.
I do have a few more questions if you please. 1) is that a "ring" on the right side of the logo? 2) What are the items in the logo that you see if you can please describe them. 3) Does the logo have the "appearance" of a stitched item? (Reason I ask is it somehow reminds me of the popular Martha Washington and George Washington old logos I saw years ago for chenille bedspreads.)
I see that you have posted this item on some other sites (as they have also noted) and think that you have had several wonderful suggestions/recommendations.
Please let us know what you find out after you get a hands-on inspection. We would like to know as well.
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This is one of those items that a hands-on inspection is needed.
I do have a few more questions if you please. 1) is that a "ring" on the right side of the logo? 2) What are the items in the logo that you see if you can please describe them. 3) Does the logo have the "appearance" of a stitched item? (Reason I ask is it somehow reminds me of the popular Martha Washington and George Washington old logos I saw years ago for chenille bedspreads.)
I see that you have posted this item on some other sites (as they have also noted) and think that you have had several wonderful suggestions/recommendations.
Please let us know what you find out after you get a hands-on inspection. We would like to know as well.
1) No (see #2)
2) There are non-distinct leaves and branches (or vines) and a ribbon on each side (the "ring" is part of the ribbon).
3) No
Thank you everyone for your suggestions.
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Can you please post a picture of the back side?
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Another thought comes to mind since you said it was very soft !! A machine embroidery patten !! It would literally be embroidered over the pattern then the background material is removed !! These can be done as a single or as many as you want !! This is an old method where the machine embroiders over the pattern and is usually done by a person !! Now days it is all done with computers !!
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Can you please post a picture of the back side?
Here you go, the back side. The lighting was a little different than the first picture. The logo shows up a little better on this one, besides it being in reverse.
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Another thought comes to mind since you said it was very soft !! A machine embroidery patten !! It would literally be embroidered over the pattern then the background material is removed !! These can be done as a single or as many as you want !! This is an old method where the machine embroiders over the pattern and is usually done by a person !! Now days it is all done with computers !!
Thanks for the thought.
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I used to have all my western shirts done this way !! Bling was not in fashion back then unless you had it done yourself !!
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The more I look at this it seems it could be a piece cut out of a larger piece?!?
When I enlarge this new picture - it appears to have the look of imprint of material - quilting.
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It is a woven metal. Sort of like a window screen, but a very tight weave. Light barely goes through it except for some pin holes here and there.
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Permalink Reply by tomsantiquesetceter a on Tuesday
General Washington doesn't necessarily mean George Washington. In the 1800s there was a tobacco by that name, plugs and pipe types. Maybe your item was a tag on a case or bag of tobacco. You say it's paper, but could it be linen?
Where did you get it? What's its history? Did prior owner know anything?
http://iantiqueonline.ning.com/group/whadjafind/forum/topics/warranted-general-washington-handmade-any-ideas-what-and-why?commentId=1813674%3AComment%3A1436792&xg_source=activity&groupId=1813674%3AGroup%3A1072787 (http://iantiqueonline.ning.com/group/whadjafind/forum/topics/warranted-general-washington-handmade-any-ideas-what-and-why?commentId=1813674%3AComment%3A1436792&xg_source=activity&groupId=1813674%3AGroup%3A1072787)
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Permalink Reply by tomsantiquesetceter a on Tuesday
General Washington doesn't necessarily mean George Washington. In the 1800s there was a tobacco by that name, plugs and pipe types. Maybe your item was a tag on a case or bag of tobacco. You say it's paper, but could it be linen?
Where did you get it? What's its history? Did prior owner know anything?
http://iantiqueonline.ning.com/group/whadjafind/forum/topics/warranted-general-washington-handmade-any-ideas-what-and-why?commentId=1813674%3AComment%3A1436792&xg_source=activity&groupId=1813674%3AGroup%3A1072787 (http://iantiqueonline.ning.com/group/whadjafind/forum/topics/warranted-general-washington-handmade-any-ideas-what-and-why?commentId=1813674%3AComment%3A1436792&xg_source=activity&groupId=1813674%3AGroup%3A1072787)
That's me in another forum trying to find out what this is.
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I think it is about whiskey!
And, that you have an embossed design label from either a whiskey bottle/decanter or a decorative box. However, I am leaning toward the latter.
By 1799, George Washington had become one of the largest whiskey producers in the United States. The historic Mount Vernon distillery still produces whiskey and spirits today.
https://www.mountvernon.org/the-estate-gardens/distillery/
I was unable to locate your label but did find some interesting recipe facts.
The recipe for Washington’s whiskey was discovered by researchers examining the distillery ledgers from 1798 and 1799. His whiskey consisted of 60% rye, 35% corn and 5% malted barley. The records also indicate that George Washington’s whiskey was distilled at least twice before being sent to market. During Washington’s lifetime whiskey was not aged and was sold in its original form.
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I saw all that too SophieMarie but decided that if it were a liquor,, it would not say "Hand Made " !! Hand Made would indicate a solid product !! And if it were a box type,, what would be on the outside would be relative to whats on the inside !! No one would care if the decorative box was hand made or not !!
Would have more likely said "Double Distilled" or something about how it was made !!
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http://dailycaller.com/2015/10/26/this-13k-whiskey-was-handmade-at-washingtons-distillery-by-4-of-the-best-distillers-in-the-world/
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I guess they may have used that term before the lawsuits but nothing shows up to have ever used the "General Washington" name !! Everything was George Washington !! Personally I do not think it was liquor related !! The distillery has been in operation since 2007 and only produces a relatively small number of bottles !! It should show up somewhere !!
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Mart, actually George Washington distilled spirits in the 1700's! The current distillery does make/sell spirits (which are usually sold out before they are finished being produced). We have actually been there and enjoyed the historical story of our only Founding Father to own a commercial distillery. However, in his time it wasn't bottled and logo'd like it is today but put in barrels that would be distributed to merchants for sale.
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Given the fact that the item in question is marked “warranted” and “handmade” it is obviously a product “logo” that was either:
1. affixed to or accompanied a wholesale/retail product;
2. was a “template” used for creating “advertising” for said wholesale/retail product;
3. is an actual advertising “item” for the aforesaid wholesale/retail product that was given to vendors of said product.
And given the fact that said “logo” states said item is “warranted” ….. to wit:
tr.v. war·rant·ed,
a. To guarantee (a product).
b. To guarantee (a purchaser) indemnification against damage or loss.
Source: https://www.thefreedictionary.com/warranted (https://www.thefreedictionary.com/warranted)
It is of my learned opinion that the item in question is defined as being ,,,,,
“durable goods” - goods not for immediate consumption and able to be kept for a period of time.
And ps: long after GW’s time, whiskey was “BONDED”, ….. but never ”WARRANTED”.
A bit of whiskey trivia, to wit:
The Whiskey Rebellion (also known as the Whiskey Insurrection) was a tax protest in the United States beginning in 1791 during the presidency of George Washington. The so-called "whiskey tax" was the first tax imposed on a domestic product by the newly formed federal government. It became law in 1791, and was intended to generate revenue for the war debt incurred during the Revolutionary War. The tax applied to all distilled spirits, but American whiskey was by far the country's most popular distilled beverage in the 18th century, so the excise became widely known as a "whiskey tax". Farmers of the western frontier were accustomed to distilling their surplus rye, barley, wheat, corn, or fermented grain mixtures into whiskey. These farmers resisted the tax. In these regions, whiskey often served as a medium of exchange. Many of the resisters were …..
Read more @ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whiskey_Rebellion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whiskey_Rebellion)
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My thinking as well Cogar !! Yes I know all that KC But late 1700`s the original distillery burned down !!
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Yes it did burn burn burn Mart! :)
Cogar you did a great detailed/numbered appeal!
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https://www.etsy.com/listing/238277091/antique-warranted-flask-bottle-whiskey?utm_source=Pinterest&utm_medium=PageTools&utm_campaign=Share
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I thank all of you for your research! I find it amazing that of the billions of web pages on the internet, so far nothing shows up for this product or it's history!
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SophieMarie, pertaining to your "warranted" bottle link.
Looks to me like that bottle was "machine" made which means its origin is post-1880.
And one can call most any bottle a "whiskey bottle" but that doesn't prove it was specifically made for the retail whiskey business.
Anyway, more relevant trivia which I can not authenicate, to wit:
Excerpted from: https://thewhiskeywash.com/whiskey-styles/bourbon/advent-of-the-bourbon-bottle/ (https://thewhiskeywash.com/whiskey-styles/bourbon/advent-of-the-bourbon-bottle/)
For most of the 19th century the barrel was the major package for selling bourbon to consumers. The distillers would sell the barrel either to a saloon or spirits shop, and that business would sell to the consumer. Glass was expensive and very few retail establishments bottled the bourbon. Instead, they depended upon the consumer to bring their own flask or jug.
Glass bottles were still very expensive even into the 1880s when a machine-made bottle started to drive down prices.
Excerpted from: http://www.gobourbon.com/dating-old-whiskey-bottles-from-the-19th-century/ (http://www.gobourbon.com/dating-old-whiskey-bottles-from-the-19th-century/)
The 19th century produced few whiskey bottles compared to the 20th century. For most of the century Bourbon and Rye whiskeys were sold by the distiller in the barrel. A few retailers offered bottled whiskey to customers but the majority of the consumers furnished their own bottle, flask or jug and had it filled from the barrel. It is not until the 1880s that machine blown glass bottles were developed, making it profitable for distillers to bottle their own product.
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Has anyone considered contacting the archives at George Washington's Mount Vernon? They are very public-friendly and should be able to provide some additional insight as to what it's use was, age, etc.
https://www.mountvernon.org/preservation/collections-holdings/browse-the-museum-collections
I'm betting it's a silk-screen for printing, but an old one. It's reaaaally cool!
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I'll try to make contact.
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Mount Vernon has agreed to take a look at it.
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Let us know what they say !! There is sure nothing we can find on it !!
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Here is Mount Vernon's reply:
Thank you for contacting us regarding the “Warranted General Washington Handmade” banner or wrapper. This is the first time we have seen anything quite like this, and we do not have anything similar in our collection. As others noted, the terminology used, “Warranted” and “Handmade” is typical of that found on cigar boxes, labels, wrappers, and signs. Based on the style of the design, it likely dates to c. 1860-1900. In terms of the material, as you noted, it is woven, but it is possible it was woven from a thin metal thread rather than a natural fiber. I would recommend that you take it to a local museum, auction house, or appraiser for their opinion.
So, the search continues...
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That is awesome that they responded so quickly! It sounds like it gives you some basics to work with, that it is likely unrelated to Washington himself. Was there an owner's name in the book that you found this in?
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No.
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Here is Mount Vernon's reply:
Thank you for contacting us regarding the “Warranted General Washington Handmade” banner or wrapper. This is the first time we have seen anything quite like this, and we do not have anything similar in our collection. As others noted, the terminology used, “Warranted” and “Handmade” is typical of that found on cigar boxes, labels, wrappers, and signs. Based on the style of the design, it likely dates to c. 1860-1900. In terms of the material, as you noted, it is woven, but it is possible it was woven from a thin metal thread rather than a natural fiber. I would recommend that you take it to a local museum, auction house, or appraiser for their opinion.
So, the search continues...
Well done!
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It could be unique and was placed inside the box, like many cigar boxes have something you fold back to reveal the contents
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I'm thinking liquor label. He drank a lot.
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That is utterly amazing they responded and responded so quickly! Impressed!!!