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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: hosman321 on December 12, 2009, 12:46:54 am
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I just won this item on Ebay. I paid $25 with shipping. I know it's not always the greatest idea to buy an "antique" without touching it. But I figured that if it was a fake, at least I didn't go broke and it'll look cool with my other antiques anyways. I just can't find any information about it anywhere online. Some things to me suggest it is old, and some suggest it's very modern. Has anyone ever seen this bell anywhere?
Suggests it's old:
1. Very "sloppy" looking craftsmanship. Lots of imperfections that look like they were made during assembly. Easy to fake, I know.
2. Very "rubbed" appearance. It looks like it has been handled extensively over many years, the features are really worn and smooth.
3. Imperfections that look like they are from age. Such as tiny chips in the metal on the soldier's hat.
Suggests it's modern:
1. The screw used to hold the soldier to the top of the bell looks pretty new. The slot on top of the screw is somewhat off center and imperfect, but the threads themselves look really shiny. I guess there's a possibility someone replaced the screw? The wire holding the knocker also looks newer.
2. Some of the black color flakes a tiny bit from the knocker when I hold it.
3.There is a seam down the side of the soldier and down the side of the bell knocker inside. There isn't a seam down the side of the bell. The seam on the side of the soldier and knocker are not straight and are also fairly sloppy. I don't know if they used molds way back when but I just thought it looked odd.
I won't be terribly disappointed if this bell isn't an antique. But I would love if it was at least from the early 1930's or older. I'm really curious about it's history! Thanks for any input!
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I'd tend to also look for a 'wear ring' from the clapper , on the I/S surface of the bell , as well as signs of 'wear polishing' on the bottom of the bell (semi-shiny or absent patina) , where is sits .
File/sandpaper marks on the bottom of the bell are good 'tells' too .
These might be indicators of actual continued use , or lack of same .
Is it a bronze bell , with a cast iron 'clapper' ?
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The bell was listed on ebay as cast iron and I think it is. It's very heavy for it's very small size. There isn't much wear on the clapper itself or where the clapper strikes. But maybe it's just that the metal is so solid and heavy?
On the bottom ridge of the bell (where it sits) has file marks. It's not nice and smooth. It looks like maybe a tool was used to cut it while it was being made. I was looking at that also. Here's the description from the Ebay Listing.
ANTIQUE REVOLUTIONARY WAR BELL. MADE OF CAST IRON. ALL ORIGINAL! 5" X 2 3/4". GOOD CONDITION AND GREAT WORKING CONDITION. NO CHIPS OR CRACKS ECT.. VERY MINOR WEAR FOR ITS AGE. NO MISSING PARTS AND NO REPAIRS MADE. RINGS LOUD! WOULD MAKE A GREAT CHRISTMAS GIFT FOR A COLLECTOR! USA BUYER WILL PAY S/H $5.95, AK AND HI WILL BE HIGHER.
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Suggests it's old:
1. Very "sloppy" looking craftsmanship. Lots of imperfections that look like they were made during assembly. Easy to fake, I know.
I would think just the opposite, that is in general, the modern repro's have poor craftmanship.JMO and far from being an expert.
Does the coarseness of the casting sand give any clues?
Hope it does turn out to be what it was advertised as.
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Yeah, I'm leaning both ways with the sloppy thing. Modern or Antique? Maybe I should word it as...primitive? Crude? Not sloppy. Not necessasarily like somebody didn't care or it was not lovingly made. More like it just isn't as crisp as something brand new. I am 50/50 on the authenticity of this bell. I really wish I could find a website or a list somewhere of common revolutionary war reproductions. I'd love to see a picture of this exact one somewhere. Whether the news was good or bad.
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I am 50/50 on the authenticity of this bell. I really wish I could find a website or a list somewhere of common revolutionary war reproductions. I'd love to see a picture of this exact one somewhere.
If you can't find web sites for repro's can I suggest looking for web sites that offer authentic examples and use them for comparison.
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From what I can see it looks to me like it is a repro of an old one. I say that because of the mold “flashing” on the bottom of the clapper. I don’t think the “old timers” would have shipped that out without grinding that off.
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The screw slot. would be off centered, in a hand made screw. the slot could be twisted due to over tightning weak metal also.
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A magnet will certainly clear up the question about any parts being steel or cast iron .
The sellers' claim that there have been 'no repairs' made might just mean 'repairs made by the seller' , so it would only be a semi-lie (kinda like semi-pregnant?) .
Dissimilar metals often react to each other (such as a steel machine screw & cast iron) over time : if the screw is the original one , the threads would not be shiny , as you've described it to be .
The wire and clapper look new also .
It's not unusual to see file marks remain for long periods of time (on 'contact surfaces' of cast iron) , since it's really quite abrasive and will normally wear down a surface it is on (quicker that it gets worn down) , however -
Clear file marking indicate hasty manufacture to me , and are mostly atypical of older craftsmanship .
Also , as others have commented , non-removal of metal 'flash' indicates the same as above .
I'd call the crastsmanship 'Rough and hasty' .
I'll be merciful , and refer to your little bell as a 'fantasy' item .
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I have to agree. I was just leafing thru a Hobbys Magazine. dated 1954. Excellent article on antique bells. there castinging's were excellent.
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Ask for your money back stating it was misrepresented.Let me guess no refunds offered.
Paypal should help you out if there's a problem with that.
Don't let sellers like this get rich off of deceit.
If seller don't cooperate give him the negative that's rightfully deserved.
I'd be embarrassed offering something like this and using the keywords "All Original & Antique Revolutionary War Bell". All worded so there's loop holes for him.
Don't let this crap go on.
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I was under the impression ebay had cracked down on selling ''Junk'' I suppose it's still up to the people too beware.
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It also never hurts to do a bit of emailing back & forth , asking such questions as : "What is the source of your information on this item?" etc , when not buying in person .
Having a printed record will often throw off the bogus sellers , or cause them to fail to reply .
Just thinking out loud here .
Antique collectors (and dealers) will sometime make a 'Wall/Box/Drawer/Shelf of Shame' for items 'bought wrongly' ... I know quite a few with these displays/collections .
Got one myself , and it serves to remind me of all the stuff I don't know (even if my brain says I do) .
As you mentioned , your item will look cool with your other antiques , so it's not a real big deal , hosman321 .
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I sold a Fire King Ashtray,about a year ago thru ebay. it was considered ''Rare'' and of course it was sold to a person in japan of which I expect to see it back here on the Market reproduced& sold as rare.
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Antique collectors (and dealers) will sometime make a 'Wall/Box/Drawer/Shelf of Shame' for items 'bought wrongly' ... I know quite a few with these displays/collections .
Please do not go there.
Only take me to happy places.
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I think that sometimes the sellers are naive about their items too. Sometimes an item could have belonged to a grandparent and for all they know, it is antique.
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I think that sometimes the sellers are naive about their items too. Sometimes an item could have belonged to a grandparent and for all they know, it is antique.
I think there's allot of snakes out there also, ready to rip you off without thinking twice then smiling about their experience.
Any decent seller would give the money back within a certain time frame if their customer isn't happy with their purchase.Especially if it's not what it was described as.
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Well, I sent the following email to the seller. He does accept returns, but "within 7 days." I don't know if that's 7 days from payment or 7 days from receiving the item. I'll let you all know his response. Oh, and under the Ebay section that says, "Original or Reproduction" he did put, "Original."
Hey, I received my bell a few days ago. I noticed that a few of the parts look new so I posted the bell on an antique forum. Many of the antique dealers and collectors told me this item isn't really an antique, and definitely isn't from the revolutionary war. I really like the way the bell looks, even though it isn't old. I don't believe you are a crook or a scam artist, so I did not want to just go leave you a negative feedback. I felt like I'd ask you a few questions first to be fair. Can you tell me everything you know about the bell and where you got it from? Any information would be great. I wouldn't even be totally heartbroken if the bell turned out to be only 50 years old. Also, is it too late to return it? Since it was listed as an original revolutionary war bell and it isn't that old, would you be willing to take a couple dollars off instead of me returning it completely? Like I said, it's cool looking, but not what I expected. Please let me know your thoughts and opinions! Thanks, Jessica
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GOOD MORNING! THIS BELL IS NOT NEW. MY PARENTS ARE PASSED ON AND THE BELL I CAN REMEMBER AS A YOUNG CHILD. SO I KNOW ITS OLD, BUT THE ACTUAL AGE? YES YOU MAY RETURN. JUST LET ME KNOW WHAT YOU WANT TO DO. THANKS JUDY
Should I keep it? She didn't really answer any of my questions...
I do like it, I'm just not sure if it's worth what I paid. Sigh. I'll ask more questions next time!
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I would send it back and chalk up any non-refundable shippings charges to experience. It is hard to gain experience without some expenditure of money either in the form of a book, a class, or an error. At least this was an inexpensive error that you learned from. I have a problem with my expensive errors. I learn from them but ouch! they hurt. :)
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IMO your doing the right thing by trying to resolve the issue directly with the seller.
Whether or not the bell is worth what you paid is totally up to you.
My problem is it being advertised as "ANTIQUE REVOLUTIONARY WAR BELL.ALL ORIGINAL.
Still don't think it's really even old.
What's the seller's parents passing on have to do with it anyways?
No appology for mis-representing what she sells?
If it was my mistake it would be send it back and I'll pay the postage.Very sorry for my mistake.
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If you bought it because you like it, that's fine and great, keep it.
If you bought it because you thought you were going to get rich by re-selling it, you best educate yourself before you go broke.
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Glad to see you are trying to resolve the conflict , hosman .
Seller is right about one thing , @ least ... the bell is not new .... the rest of the info is in question , though .
Personal definitions of what a real 'antique' is is near the core of many disputes I've seen & have many 'logical' arguments on both sides , just like 'new' items do ( is it new , if it's been taken out of its' box & handled ?) .
Since I'm semi-notorious for off-the-wall negotiations , I'd suggest that you request that the seller refund the shipping cost to you & you keep the item (thus both buyer & seller will both be screwed & semi-satisfied too) .
If you like the item , I say keep it & put it in your 'learning curve' file .
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I am curious how it will be relisted
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I am curious is they will try and resell it same way as well. (Keep an eye on it!)
If you only want an authentic one...send it back! It isn't.....unless they had revolutionary war happen that the rest of the world doesn't know about! (Which could happen with some people I know! ha!)
If you like it...keep it!
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If you bought it because you like it, that's fine and great, keep it.
If you bought it because you thought you were going to get rich by re-selling it, you best educate yourself before you go broke.
I never intended to re-sell it. I've never sold a single one of my antiques and I never will. Unless, of course, it's an absolute emergency. They mean too much to me. I'm simply trying to get as much information as I can and find out if I should attack this seller or see if it was an honest mistake.
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hosman I wasn't meaning you reselling it...I was meaning the person who sold it to you (if you send it back to them)! Just wanted to clarify....sometime s my fingers get to typing so fast they are at a loss for words! :)
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If you bought it because you like it, that's fine and great, keep it.
If you bought it because you thought you were going to get rich by re-selling it, you best educate yourself before you go broke.
I was just like, "Geesh, that was rather rude!" Thanks for clearing that up, things always come out wrong through a computer screen. :)
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Having deja vu.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Cast-Iron-Bell-REVOLUTIONARY-WAR-FIGURE-HANDLE-/390130102832?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Antiques_Decorative_Arts&hash=item5ad590f230
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@ least the seller listed it as 'vintage' ....
Now you can have a matched set !
;) ;) ;)
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Very true. Hey, mine will be an antique some day. I'll pass it down to my kids and in 100 years maybe it'll be worth 30 whole bucks.
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There you go !
I'd bet on it being worth more like $80 , @ the century mark .
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Looks like the seller has an appropriate description. Is this the same seller? Still a neat little bell, even if he's not old.