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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: talesofthesevenseas on November 30, 2010, 06:36:29 pm
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I've reeled in another catch at my favorite thrift store, but is this one is a keeper, or if I should throw it back?
This is a copper and iron fish pan, and it is most definitely hand forged and formed, constructed with rivets, all different sizes, and crudely cut ironwork. The bowl appears to be hammered, but I'll know more tonight when I clean it. Someone put some time and effort into this, and I don't see anyone making something like this just for fun/decoration in modern times. However, I see no sign of it having been used over a fire, but something may show up when I clean it tonight, it's VERY tarnished.
In truth, I've never seen anything quite like this. I looked online and found a couple of very similar antique fish pans with this style of handle attachment and other molds with similar fish in them, but nothing quite like this one. I took the bait and paid $1.60 for it.
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x124/talesofthesevenseas/FishPan1.jpg)
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x124/talesofthesevenseas/FishPan2.jpg)
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x124/talesofthesevenseas/FishPan3.jpg)
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x124/talesofthesevenseas/FishPan4.jpg)
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x124/talesofthesevenseas/FishPan5.jpg)
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x124/talesofthesevenseas/FishPan6.jpg)
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Tales I really like this piece my first thought was you would put some type of pastry in the base then filling , and bottom ( like a pot pie ) and turn it out when cooked to leave the little fish design & the marked edges.
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I like it too, I can't wait to clean it up at home tonight. It will look great hanging in the kitchen. I'm finding similar old ones going for some pretty good $$.
This one is described as "19th century" and has an auction estimate of $150 - $250
(http://photos.liveauctioneers.com/houses/mortonkuehnert/23172/0022_1_lg.jpg)
A "copper fish pan" in an antiques estate sale, with no other info:
http://www.bluemoonantiquesraleigh.com/photo-gallery.php?id=31 (http://www.bluemoonantiquesraleigh.com/photo-gallery.php?id=31)
(http://www.bluemoonantiquesraleigh.com/assets/listings-web/31/2010_02150058.JPG)
Look at the similarity in the handle attachment on this one, which is dated 1860 and selling for $95 OBO ...This fish is beginning to smell like a keeper:
http://www.bonanza.com/booths/BARNTIQUES859/items/antique_copper_pan_iron_handle_tin_lined_c_1860 (http://www.bonanza.com/booths/BARNTIQUES859/items/antique_copper_pan_iron_handle_tin_lined_c_1860)
(http://s3.amazonaws.com/bonanzleimages/afu/images/1973/5159/P1011015.JPG)
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That handle is so so close to yours I say definitely a keeper!!!
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Awesome find tales! Looks genuinely old to me, that'd be great if it is from the 1860's!
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Nice catch, its a keeper.
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Keeper for sure... If if it's just kinda old!! So unusual...
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I'm seeing a color difference between the front and back sides of the pan. I think the pan might be tinned on the interior side. It will be interesting to see what I find under the tarnish.
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I am going to throw some water on the fish. :-\ I do not like the fresh red rust by the rivets. My personal opinion, but every piece of iron I have seen with that new rust was new made to look old. Aside from that concern, the price is great and the fish pan looks great. A nice wall hanger with a great presence.
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You were right about the rust Wayward, the handle wasn't iron at all. It is cut out of flat metal, some grade of steel I guess. A magnet sticks to it and it was covered with rust. You can see the cut marks on the sides of the handle. The handle "supports" are the same kind of metal, but they are some kind of round stock, with the ends flattened out.
I think this is antique and handmade. The copper is all hand hammered and it is tinned or zinc coated (not quite sure how to tell) on the inside of the bowl, you can really see it now that it is clean. I think they quit doing that in the thirties when they found out it was harmful to cook in it. Compare the first and second photos below.
Take a look at the third photo below, the tin is wearing through to the copper below the fish, and the fish is very worn down, the designs on the walls of the bowl are visible above the fish, but worn away on the rest of it.
A magnet does not stick to the copper or tin sides of the bowl. The edges are folded over, just like they are on the old brass bedwarmer I have, and very irregular. The whole pan is pretty irregular in shape too.
Here is the copper side after cleaning. I still need to get some rust remover on the handle, but I'm really pleased with how it came out. There was a pretty unbelieveable amount of tarnish and dirt on this. Looks good hanging over the meat safe!
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x124/talesofthesevenseas/FishPan7.jpg)
Here is the tinned side:
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x124/talesofthesevenseas/FishPan8.jpg)
Up close on Mr. Fish, note the wear to the design on the top wall, the fish and the copper coming through the tin. You can also get a look at the silvery metal of the handle now. Definitly not iron.
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x124/talesofthesevenseas/FishPan9.jpg)
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A Good Catch IMO, Think it would look good in your kitchen for sure. Once again nice work
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Thanks Ironlord, I'm likin' it!
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I did some reading up on tinned copper pans. Apparently they are not the health risk I though they were, the danger is more in the green corrosion that develops on the copper, if the info below is correct. Back in the day "Tinkers" would go door to door and offer to re-tin pans. The tinning does wear off with time and it's difficult to find someone to re-tin anymore. There's an interesting discussion on it here:
http://www.jamieoliver.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=29914&p=1 (http://www.jamieoliver.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=29914&p=1)
and more on tin here:
http://www.madehow.com/Volume-4/Tin.html (http://www.madehow.com/Volume-4/Tin.html)
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This looks a lot better and more authentic in the after pics than it did in the before pics. Nice find and nice job, Tales!
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I, like you, believe the pan is very old. The handle appears like the one on the skillet my stepdad's grandfather carried in the Civil War in the 40th Illinois Infantry regiment. On his there is a loop formed at the extremety of the handle and my stepdad told me that his grandfather stuck the ramrod of his musket in that to hold it over the fire and "make hoe-cake." It is "hallmarked" on the handle with two 1/2" fishes arranged like the Gemini sign. In trying to research this "hallmark" the closest thing I could find was that the sign of the fishes was the mark of a group of Jewish iron workers of that period. Further I Knoweth Not.
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That's a great story, thanks for posting it!!! That would be consistant with the other one that is posted above with the same handle design that also dated to the 1860's. All the construction methods on the pan remind me a lot of the bedwarmer, which we figured dated to about 1850-ish. Mr Fish is definitely getting a place of honor on the kitchen wall.
Wayward, I'll take some additional detail pics tonight. Every inch of this looks irregular and handmade. There's not a single part of it that has any of the hallmarks of machining.
By the way I posted the wrong price for it, I actually paid less, only $1.20 for this pan. Un-freakin' believeable. I think whomever is pricing inventory at this thrift store hasn't got a clue about antiques. I'm seeing things like run-of-the-mill antique and even reproduction antique rocking chairs over-priced at $300 and on the other end of the spectrum items like this pan at $1.20 and the chinahead doll at $5.50. I think I'm going to have to try to hit this store on a daily basis, this can't possibly go on much longer before someone gets a clue, and who knows what else might appear on the shelves with a three dollar price tag in the meantime.
Here's some info on Civil War era pots and pans:
http://www.dearmyrtle.com/05/0229.htm (http://www.dearmyrtle.com/05/0229.htm)
And if any of you are interested in getting one of these copper pans with the same kind of handle support, there is a nice one up for auction at Goodwill, currently at $13.00
http://www.shopgoodwill.com/auctions/Antique-CopperIron-Pan-7030555.html (http://www.shopgoodwill.com/auctions/Antique-CopperIron-Pan-7030555.html)
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Well this is interesting, I received a reply from an Ebay seller that I decided would be a good person to ask about the fish pan because they are openning a place called "The Copper Art Museum" in AZ.
http://www.azcentennial.gov/projects/applications/AHAC07-10.pdf (http://www.azcentennial.gov/projects/applications/AHAC07-10.pdf)
Unfortunately, it looks like my fish pan may not be antique at all. Here is the reply:
Hello, Sorry to be so late in replying. Your pan is similar to a French (lechefrite) drip collecting pan for under a roast on a spit. The fish was probably put in at a later date. I think that it is not from the 1800's due to the round stock on the supporting handles but is still very nice and an interesting piece. This handle type was used on a lot of copper coming from Turkey in the late 1900's Hope that this helps you
Best regards, Pat
I went hunting for similar Turkish pans and found these, which do look similar:
http://www.yurdan.com/yrdn/Search.aspx?q_key=turkish%20copper%20pan&CatalogID=YRDN_Copper (http://www.yurdan.com/yrdn/Search.aspx?q_key=turkish%20copper%20pan&CatalogID=YRDN_Copper)
They do have roundstock on the handle support, but all the examples of this are listed as having iron handles.
But what bothers me about this reply is that I'm a little doubtful that the fish could have been added later without it looking like an addition. It's tinned like the rest of the pan and I think that would have come off or the tinned finish would have been damaged if it had been impressed by a second party. The fish doesn't look like something that would have been done in Turkey. (I don't think?) Retinning copper pans is a labor-intensive process which is described here:
http://www.marthastewart.com/article/retinning-copper-pans (http://www.marthastewart.com/article/retinning-copper-pans)
and there are very few people who do it. It just doesn't quite add up that someone would invest that much in this pan if it was a 1990's Turkish knock-off.
I dunno. Hmm... I might try emailing the retinning guy to see if what he thinks. I'm back to not knowing what the heck I've got!
Jondar, is your pan's handle support made of roundstock? Is the handle steel or iron?
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Well Hells bells. I sat down with a loupe and looked over the pan, searching for signs of machining or something that would tell me if this is or isn't antique. Nuthin'! I suspect the person I contacted is correct and its a repro, and if they were using old school methods in Turkey, there's just no way of knowing with absolute certainty. Darn! But what the heck, I still like it on the wall, until I find something truly old to hang there.
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We have a saying in the UK that one person's junk is another person's treasure. If this was on sale in the UK it would fetch a good price as a wall ornament.
Phil