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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: newnut on March 06, 2012, 12:29:52 PM
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Firstly, Hello there everyone. Im Ben, a 32 yr old guy in berkshire, UK. Im new to the site and to antiques, so you'll probably see a lot of me on here. I've been looking through books and trawling the net trying to learn what I can in the hope I can find valuables hidden at car boots, charity shops and the like. Well I've finally taken the plunge and bought my first piece that I believe to be a wise investment. While not expecting to turn pennys to fortunes I do hope not to make a loss! Anyway, I found this piece in a second hand shop, it seems to be hand crafted and of a period I cant seem to date. Can you help me identify it? What do you all think before I take it to a dealers? I'll let you know what I paid for it after you've had a guess! lol.
It has drop down leafs both sides, lockable draw with key. Kind regards all, Ben (http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h339/newnut/DSCF2321.jpg)[/img][/img]
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Hi there Ben and welcome to the group !! Hope you enjoy it !! A very unique first buy !! To help a bit can you take a pic of the foot on one of the legs ?? Just put a piece of white paper under the foot so it will show up !! Can`t see with the floor the same color !! Also take pics of the dovetails on the drawer and of the top if possible !! One of the back would help as well but I can live without that one if necessary !!
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ok, i'll do that now, thanks mart. I had a feeling more pics would be required. the doves are def hand cut. anyway, im not too clever with computers, so pics will follow in about 10 mins.
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ok, heres a few.... on inspection i noticed the wheels are all damaged where something too heavy has been put on it at some point. the lock is flush, i should of taken a pic of that but forgot.
the foot.
(http://)http://(http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h339/newnut/DSCF2322.jpg)[/img]
the shoulder
(http://)http://(http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h339/newnut/DSCF2327.jpg)[/img]
dovetails on draw
(http://)http://(http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h339/newnut/DSCF2323.jpg)[/img]
and
(http://)http://(http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h339/newnut/DSCF2324.jpg)[/img]
the top, open
(http://)http://(http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h339/newnut/DSCF2325.jpg)[/img]
and the back, similar to the front.
(http://)http://(http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h339/newnut/DSCF2329.jpg)[/img]
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One more thing,, above the drawer on front there appears to be an empty space between it and the top !! Is that correct or just the pic ??
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just a funny pic, there's no space, and the colors are more consistant than they appear in the pics.
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The cabriole legs and trifid foot say that this is a Queen Anne style drop leaf table !! If I guessed at the approx date it would be early 1800`s from the construction !! Not sure how big this table is so it could be just an occassional or console table !! Larger example could be breakfast table !! Wood looks like either mahogany or walnut !! Kind of hard to tell from these pics !! Center section looks like it was made of three boards,, wider center board and smaller on front and back but then again its hard to say for sure !! They are fairly common but still can bring a fair price although they do not bring as much in the UK as they might here in the states for several reasons !! But as a first purchase,, you did very well !! Just a note,, dealers do not pay more than 1/3 to 1/2 of retail price so you might be better off selling to an individual rather than a dealer !! Casters are not particularly common on these tables here in the U.S. !!
Hopefully Jacon4 who is much more experienced in these than I,, can correct me if I am wrong !!
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thank you very much for your reply's and your time mart. I really appreciate it. I can now start looking for its value. hopefully as you say jacon4 will be along to help out there. As i promised to let you know, I paid 15 uk pounds for it, which i believe is around 24 us dollars.
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You`re joking !! $24. ??? Just google "Queen Anne drop leaf tables with trifid foot" and you can see similar examples of all sizes !! I do not think yours is a hand crafted table if you are talking about a home made piece by non professional craftsman !! It looks to be well made !! I think with the right advertising you will do well on this table if it is in good condition !! Hopefully Jacon4 will chime in on this one !! He keeps up with values more than I do on this style !!
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WOW...for $24!!!! What a deal.
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I would have snatched that one up in a heartbeat !! Right KC ??
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thanks for the help mart, i didnt mean hand crafted in that way, just hand built, ie dovetails hand cut etc. I was set on buying it before i knew the price, but as soon as she said that i paid her before someone else walked in the shop!!!!
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Please post a pic of the underside of table.
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I'm not sure that I see a trifid foot. It looks more to me like Louis XV, with a carved flourish down to a brass castor. It looks like it has an ebonized punched background for the carving which is also reminiscent of Louis XV carving. Here are a couple of photos of a similar type of background from a Louis XV canape.
Nice table.
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now you've thrown a spanner in the works dr612!! (lol) I'll take a pic of the underside and also of the carvings. I also took a pic of the key, next to my thumb to give you a size idea, maybe thats a clue?, i dont know. some child has crayoned the bottom at some point.
(http://)(http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h339/newnut/DSCF2339.jpg)
(http://)(http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h339/newnut/DSCF2343.jpg)
(http://)(http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h339/newnut/DSCF2342.jpg)
(http://)(http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h339/newnut/DSCF2338.jpg)
(http://[IMG]http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h339/newnut/DSCF2341.jpg)[/img]
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I guess a spanner would be a wrench over here. :) Didn't mean to cause a ruckus, but everything about the style of the table looks French to me. The closeups of the carving show the identical ebonized punched background that the canape that I put up has. I am very interested in hearing other opinions on this because it may help to date both this piece and the piece that I am comparing it to.
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I also debated on the French element !! And to be clear for our new member,, it could be either !! Had it had a foot more commonly used with the Louis XV style,, I would have gone with that one !! But with the trifid foot I decided to go with the Queen Anne style !! And to explain for Newnut, a trifid foot is simply a foot with three lobes !! Also called drake foot !! Certain design features are more common to one style than others but that is not to say that you will not find the same elements in other styles !! Some are a jumble of design features !! For instance the cabriole leg in France is associated with the Louis XV style but during the same time period, in the UK it was associated with the Queen Anne style !! So much depends on where the table originated !! We could just flip a coin !!
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Well no wonder this antique game is a specialized business! There certainly is a lot to learn, and Im very grateful for the information you are giving me. im going to have to read this thread a hundred times my self to try and take it all in.
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I agree about the trifid feet/style....however, this screams French to me for some reason!
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Thats probably because of the scrolled drawer front KC !! Not common on English Queen Anne !!
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im going to take it to a place i know today an see what they say, if it were french wouldn't it be MORE ornate?? they seemed to be very extravagant compared to Queen Anne. (Forgive me for being naive, im new to this game remember!! lol)
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Although out of my field of interest, this table i think is Victorian era, last half 19th century, probably english, could be french, 1850-1900. Generally speaking, english cabinetmakers used oak as secondary wood construction in the 18th century but i really dont know if that continued into the victorian era. Drawer construction here does not appear to be oak so i really dont know, just guessing here mostly.
The timeline for period Queen Anne furniture in America was 1730-1760, the timeline would have been earlier in England, 1702-1714 or so. One thing for sure, this table is not period QA.
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jacon4, I am with you on this one. Has to be later than actual QA period.
Betting with casters..it is extremely late 1890's to early 1900's - most likely the later
I must say...I have the same Verizon remote control here in TX! LOL
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I did not mean period QA but the later versions !! Wasn`t there a resurgence in the style early to mid 1800`s ?? Trying to remember here !! The secondary wood looks like mahogany to me !! But hard to tell from pics !! I guess we are just mainly trying to define what to call this table rather than anything else !! Although to say Victorian would cover it all I guess !!
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Yeah, does look like mahogany to me too. Sure, they are STILL building QA style furniture even today, its such a classic furniture style with those cabriole legs. Period QA furniture was built out of walnut mostly, both here and in the UK.
What to call it? I would guess victorian center table or library table.
Another thing to keep in mind, in America, furniture was built by hand until the 1850s, when the circular saw was hooked up to steam power here, that was the end of the line for hand made furniture here. Not so in the UK, because of the guild system (like a union here), furniture was built by hand until the 1930s!
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And would you have an idea on value for this one !! Us dollars will be OK I think he can figure the difference !!
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Value? geez, I dunno, i would guess in the american market, a european victorian table like this would go for $200-$300 dollars at auction, maybe less. That drawer front is either missing it's finish or veneer so that would certainly affect its value.
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well, thanks for all that, i've just read through all your posts, I dont think anything is missing from the draw front, thats just the way my camera reflected the light for some strange reason. im rushing off to parents evening now, so will log on when i return.
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Hey Newnut, no problem. I could be all wet here in my observations, i know a bit about American furniture but just enough about european furniture to get me in trouble!
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Still well worth the $24 bucks he spent on it !!
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Understand Mart....was just thinking out loud about the QA. In my neck of the woods would sell $100 - $200 if veneer is missing.
I am also thinking mahogany. Still looks in pretty good shape...and a classic.
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Well having the benefit of having it here with me, Im leaning towards walnut now you have mentioned it. I say this because of the straight grain and it is actually quite light, (i may be wrong, isn't walnut lighter than mahogany?) I didn't have time yesterday to do much, so will do more today. What would be your route with restoring a piece like this? the lock is damaged and a corner is damaged. Should I fork out for a professional restore, or sell as is? I guess an appraisal will answer that for me.
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I would sell as is if i didnt want to keep it in my collection. Just be aware that selling old furniture in the UK is much different than here in America. Totally different market.
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Just did a quick Google seach with the term "antique french victorian console table" and this was fairly close to what you have. Note the auction was 2007, before economic crash and before the depression in antique brown furniture that continues to this day. It didnt sell.
http://www.icollector.com/ANTIQUE-FRENCH-VICTORIAN-CONSOLE-PARLOR-TABLE-1637289_i7109439
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I also would sell it as-is,, repairs may cost more than you will make as profit !! Another thing to think about,, much of the furniture from the later time period is simply looked at as "used furniture" in the UK !! Quite different from here in the U.S !! But with careful marketing and a good description, I think you can still make a bit on your table !!
No,, walnut is about the same intensity as mahogany but different grain and tone !! The case wood may be walnut but the secondary wood looks like mahogany !!
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Jacon4 - I am interested in your description of the market as a "depression in antique brown furniture." I'm not a dealer, and don't often buy or sell pieces, but I had heard that the market was "soft". Is the true state of the antique furniture market that bad? Is it across regions and periods both? What do you think the future holds? I know that at local antique auctions, many of the buyers are dealers, but there are few young people in attendance. Same with model train shows. Am very interested in your thoughts.
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Hey dr612
Well, let me put it this way, American antique furniture has never been more affordable than it is to today, dating back 20-30 years or so. There are several reasons for this, demographics for one, the baby boomers are not only a huge population group, they are also the richest in history. You just dont have the numbers today in terms of young collectors and the few that are there dont have the same disposable income. There was a MAJOR BUZZ factor 20 years ago as well, antiques roadshow comes immediately to mind, thats missing today as dealers & auction houses struggle for sales. Additionally, the fact that boomers are retiring at the rate of 10,000 a day and down sizing, theres a flood of material hitting the market as they sell off their collections and move to smaller quarters. Add all of this up and there has never been a better time to collect american antique furniture which is known in the trade as "brown furniture".
And yes, i would say its across the board in terms of style or period, doesnt matter. There are some REALLY GOOD buys today for high quality period pieces. The market was down quite a bit before the 2008 economic crash but since then that market has been really tough.
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Another thing you can count on is that prices in most antique and later furniture as well as many collectables are cyclical !! If you keep it long enough,, it will come back into popularity !! Except maybe Beanie Babies,, I don`t hold much hope for them !!
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LOL, yeah, thats what alot of people say, its just a cycle, it'll come back. The furniture cycle has been down for many years now and with the volume of material going to market these days, i think it will be many more before furniture comes back to the prices it once commanded, if ever. I would note the world record price for a single piece of american furniture is 12 million and was set in 1989, 23 years ago..............
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As a baby boomer myself, that is a very good point. I am still more inclined to pick up pieces than let them go, but I can see in the not too distant future a time where I will have to decide what to do with the "treasures" that I have cared for during my lifetime. My two adult sons are not particularly interested in antique furniture, and my concern is that it is as much a generational issue as a personal one. I hope, Mart, that it is something that will cycle back into favor. Antiques are art and history rolled together into countless unique and varied forms. Our lives would be much impoverished without their charm and beauty.
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Its pretty much a supply & demand game, as are most things. Antique furniture hit a "perfect storm" during the '80s but since then has struggled to maintain that boom. I know alot of auction houses that tell me that they really get it stuck in their ear when they explain the reality of antique furniture prices of today to clients that are down sizing and want to sell, often for less than they paid decades ago. Makes for tough marketing all round!
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I would add that the top of the market does OK as does the bottom of the market, its the middle market that has issues. Naturally, 90% of the market is in the middle market.
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Ha !! Maybe they should look at it same as the stock market,, both live and otherwise,, buy high, sell low !! Thats middle America for ya` !!!
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Well, I personally dont have alot of sympathy for this situation. First off, they got to live with and enjoy these objects for many years & two, its not like period furniture is worthless, far from it, it's just not worth as much as it was during the boom years.