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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: jodiejean on July 31, 2012, 09:03:24 AM

Title: Old bowl with legs, maybe enamel on metal, any info?
Post by: jodiejean on July 31, 2012, 09:03:24 AM
Hi, a friend of ours was throwing this out, she is in her 80's. She said it came from her mothers house, so I am assuming it could be around 100 years old.
it looks like enamel on metal , and its like a bowl with three legs. there is a pic of a bird in the bowl , and flowers all around, maybe lotus flowers?
All this info is pure speculation on my part, and I am no expert, just loves old things. Any informationb about this object would be very helpful. thanks :)
Can only post one pic, its shows inside the bowl. outside the bowl is decorative as well.
Title: Re: Old bowl with legs, maybe enamel on metal, any info?
Post by: mart on July 31, 2012, 09:06:28 AM
No pics showing up !! Need to see the whole thing if possible as well as bottom !!
Title: Re: Old bowl with legs, maybe enamel on metal, any info?
Post by: jodiejean on July 31, 2012, 09:35:08 AM
I had to make the pics smaller, so the quality isn't as good.
Oh, the bowl is about 30cms in diameter and 15 cms in height
Title: Re: Old bowl with legs, maybe enamel on metal, any info?
Post by: mart on July 31, 2012, 10:43:46 AM
Now can we see thge bottom ?? Those pics are fine !! Is it a bowl on stand or made all as one piece ??
Title: Re: Old bowl with legs, maybe enamel on metal, any info?
Post by: jodiejean on July 31, 2012, 10:47:49 AM
No maker's marks on bottom...
Title: Re: Old bowl with legs, maybe enamel on metal, any info?
Post by: bbc-antiques.co.uk on July 31, 2012, 10:49:53 AM
Hi, a friend of ours was throwing this out, she is in her 80's. She said it came from her mothers house, so I am assuming it could be around 100 years old.
it looks like enamel on metal , and its like a bowl with three legs. there is a pic of a bird in the bowl , and flowers all around, maybe lotus flowers?
All this info is pure speculation on my part, and I am no expert, just loves old things. Any informationb about this object would be very helpful. thanks :)
Can only post one pic, its shows inside the bowl. outside the bowl is decorative as well.
   Hi any pictures available ?
Title: Re: Old bowl with legs, maybe enamel on metal, any info?
Post by: jodiejean on July 31, 2012, 10:50:19 AM
Its all one piece.
Title: Re: Old bowl with legs, maybe enamel on metal, any info?
Post by: mart on July 31, 2012, 01:12:26 PM
Your bowl appears to be Majolica which is a tin glazed earthenware or pottery !!  Much majolica was made in years past and is collected today !! Difficult to say who made your bowl without a mark of some kind and a lot of it was unmarked !!
Title: Re: Old bowl with legs, maybe enamel on metal, any info?
Post by: gerspee on July 31, 2012, 01:14:45 PM
Lokks to me more a piece off Chinese Cloisonne . So maybe to look more on the internet about cloisonne 19th century late I think .
Title: Re: Old bowl with legs, maybe enamel on metal, any info?
Post by: mart on July 31, 2012, 01:21:07 PM
Cloisonne would have had a border around each leaf and such to hold the enamel !! This has no wire or other borders !!
Title: Re: Old bowl with legs, maybe enamel on metal, any info?
Post by: gerspee on July 31, 2012, 01:28:39 PM
Still think it is and if you look at the picture off the bottom you will see the brass base on the edge . So with better detailed pictures maybe better to see the cell's ? 
Title: Re: Old bowl with legs, maybe enamel on metal, any info?
Post by: jodiejean on July 31, 2012, 02:04:50 PM
There are wire borders around the leaves and all the decorations. The pic dosent show it very well.
thank you for sharing some information. :)
Title: Re: Old bowl with legs, maybe enamel on metal, any info?
Post by: mart on July 31, 2012, 02:43:59 PM
I can`t see any in these pics !! Perhaps we could get better pics !!  We can only go by what we can see !!  Make your pic file size smaller so we can enlarge without distortion !! I tried enlarging these but was all a blur !!
Title: Re: Old bowl with legs, maybe enamel on metal, any info?
Post by: jodiejean on July 31, 2012, 03:02:11 PM
This is a damaged part where u can see the metal wires sticking out.
Title: Re: Old bowl with legs, maybe enamel on metal, any info?
Post by: mart on July 31, 2012, 04:02:49 PM
Its still a blur when enlarged !! Your pics are over the file size limit for this site !! If you will just resize down to 2000kb we can see the details !!
Title: Re: Old bowl with legs, maybe enamel on metal, any info?
Post by: sapphire on July 31, 2012, 06:19:41 PM
mart, is this any better to work with? 

Probably too small now  :P
Title: Re: Old bowl with legs, maybe enamel on metal, any info?
Post by: ghopper1924 on July 31, 2012, 07:49:16 PM
I get that there are metal wires, a key element of cloissone(sp?), but for some reason I agree that it does look alot more like majolica!
Title: Re: Old bowl with legs, maybe enamel on metal, any info?
Post by: mart on July 31, 2012, 07:59:16 PM
Much better Sapphire !! Thanks !!  I looked at the enlargement and still do not think cloisonne !! If it is, its the worst I have ever seen !! Cloisonne will have a ping sound when tapped lightly with a metal object !! Take a butter knife and tap the outside of the bowl !!
Got the names wrong !! Majolica is an enameled earthenware or pottery !!
Title: Re: Old bowl with legs, maybe enamel on metal, any info?
Post by: sapphire on July 31, 2012, 09:05:56 PM
mart, I'm not familiar with the difference between cloisonne and majolica. I used to have a couple of my mother's pieces from the 30's or earlier (I believe they were either saucers or pin dishes). She had always called them cloisonne, but that could just have been a term she had heard. They were metal form, the entire design was fine wire, the decoration was enamel I assume. The only part that showed the base material was the lip and the slightly raised base (which had the same 'enamel' in the center) and when polished resembled brass. Is majolica also made similar, with a metal form to start and wire 'framework' forming the design?
Title: Re: Old bowl with legs, maybe enamel on metal, any info?
Post by: fancypants on July 31, 2012, 09:38:30 PM
Nice little example of Asian cloisonne , to my eyes , jodiejean ...

I'm wondering a bit about the red/pink area of 'trim/accent' work ... can't see any wire grid in sapphires' great low kb pic .

The bird @ the center of the item is a very cool & stylized Phoenix .... looks nearly central-american !

It's also possible that the base metal (not the wire gridding) is bronze .
Title: Re: Old bowl with legs, maybe enamel on metal, any info?
Post by: jodiejean on August 01, 2012, 05:39:23 AM
thanks fancypants, I wasn't sure what type of bird it was. And to mart, I am terribly sorry about the pictures !!!! I am  novice!! And I am not sure how to resize the photos!!!
Title: Re: Old bowl with legs, maybe enamel on metal, any info?
Post by: mart on August 01, 2012, 08:44:27 AM
No problem,, Sapphire resized the pic for me !!
Title: Re: Old bowl with legs, maybe enamel on metal, any info?
Post by: mart on August 01, 2012, 12:27:16 PM
mart, I'm not familiar with the difference between cloisonne and majolica. I used to have a couple of my mother's pieces from the 30's or earlier (I believe they were either saucers or pin dishes). She had always called them cloisonne, but that could just have been a term she had heard. They were metal form, the entire design was fine wire, the decoration was enamel I assume. The only part that showed the base material was the lip and the slightly raised base (which had the same 'enamel' in the center) and when polished resembled brass. Is majolica also made similar, with a metal form to start and wire 'framework' forming the design?

 Cloisonne is a metal frame or base to which the wires are attached then filled in with enamel !! Majolica is a pottery or earthenware that has been enameled !!  It is not unusual to have people get the names confused since at first glance its hard to tell !!  This may be cloisonne and I just can`t see it in the pics !!
Title: Re: Old bowl with legs, maybe enamel on metal, any info?
Post by: gerspee on August 01, 2012, 12:36:24 PM
But this is cloisonne and maybe even older as I said in my first reaction . It's maybe handy to look at older cloisonne with google because the value is a lot higher then even with some damage . The Cloisonne on porcelain is called Totai and mostly from Japan . So not called majolica also .
Title: Re: Old bowl with legs, maybe enamel on metal, any info?
Post by: jodiejean on August 01, 2012, 01:06:19 PM
i can see a gold color from the metal in a few places, but the majority of the metal looks tarnished and grey /brown in color.
Thanks again everyone for all the info, its fun figuring out the story behind this antique :)
Title: Re: Old bowl with legs, maybe enamel on metal, any info?
Post by: mart on August 01, 2012, 01:59:54 PM
http://www.idcloisonne.com/index.html
This should help you !! Cloisonne was very finely crafted and the older the cloisonne the more skilled and detailed the work !!  I just don`t see a comparison with this bowl !!  However the site I gave will evaluate for a small fee if you wish !!  Could be ??? If you get an evaluation,, come back and let us know what they say !!  Maybe something I am just not seeing from these pics !!
Title: Re: Old bowl with legs, maybe enamel on metal, any info?
Post by: sapphire on August 01, 2012, 02:25:52 PM
Went hunting around and found one similar to some of the pieces my mother had. She had told me she had them before she and dad were married, which was in 1940.  I found them to be not as detailed as new pieces (at least not the ones she had), but more heavily enameled than some of the more recent pieces I picked up.

This one is given a date of 1940's

http://www.etsy.com/listing/77328979/vintage-cloisonne-mini-plate-enamel
Title: Re: Old bowl with legs, maybe enamel on metal, any info?
Post by: mart on August 01, 2012, 02:54:45 PM
This one was evidently made for export although the seller says something about it being from a time when it was illegal to buy from China !!  Don`t know when that would be,, can`t find it on the net anywhere !!
Title: Re: Old bowl with legs, maybe enamel on metal, any info?
Post by: jodiejean on August 14, 2012, 01:37:02 PM
I sent the pics of the bowl to idcloisonne.com.... ......heres what she said......
   
You have an interesting early Japanese cloisonne footed bowl, I would call this a centrepiece for a large table. It is quite old, dating about 1860 to 1880. The crude mat enamels and the colors are typical of this period as well as the background cloud wires being positioned at different angles instead of all going in the same direction, as future cloisonne pieces show. There seems to be quite a bit of oxidation to metal and enamel surfaces which is quite normal. The base metal is copper or a copper alloy with a gilt finish.
 
The motifs have a feminine influence, the bird is the Buddhist symbol for the female element, as well as the Yin, in Yin and Yang, black and white and other opposites in the Asian culture. The floral band on pale green represents the Japanese Empress, a bouquet of three paulownia flowers and leaves. Other flowers are not familiar to me in these primitive styles. The criss-cross bands represents rice grains or food.

Really cool!!! Now I know the story :)))
Title: Re: Old bowl with legs, maybe enamel on metal, any info?
Post by: wendy177 on August 14, 2012, 02:12:10 PM
Cool jodiejean great info! I don't know the first thing about cloisonne. Just to clear up mart is correct Majolica is  tin-enameled glazed pottery.  :)
Title: Re: Old bowl with legs, maybe enamel on metal, any info?
Post by: ghopper1924 on August 14, 2012, 02:53:23 PM
Awesome story! I learned something today....now, if I can just remember it tomorrow.
Title: Re: Old bowl with legs, maybe enamel on metal, any info?
Post by: mart on August 14, 2012, 03:02:14 PM
Excellent !! Just goes to show that you can not always tell what something is by looking at a pic !! All the more reason to get the best photos possible !!  Or I need to get stronger glasses !!
Title: Re: Old bowl with legs, maybe enamel on metal, any info?
Post by: ACStanley on August 14, 2012, 03:42:25 PM
What a beautiful piece and information! Thanks everyone =)
Title: Re: Old bowl with legs, maybe enamel on metal, any info?
Post by: ghopper1924 on August 14, 2012, 08:11:31 PM
"Or I need to get stronger glasses !!"

I think I just need a glass of something strong...
Title: Re: Old bowl with legs, maybe enamel on metal, any info?
Post by: bbc-antiques.co.uk on August 14, 2012, 11:27:36 PM
archaic Chinese censer shape cloissone  value £100
Title: Re: Old bowl with legs, maybe enamel on metal, any info?
Post by: mart on August 15, 2012, 12:05:48 PM
"Or I need to get stronger glasses !!"

I think I just need a glass of something strong...

I am with you !!