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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: diamondjim12 on September 29, 2012, 03:00:23 PM

Title: Old Photo & Folk Art Horse -- Please Help! Civil War? Rare?
Post by: diamondjim12 on September 29, 2012, 03:00:23 PM
This is my recent find. I have never seen anything like this before and figured it may be rare. This is outside my area of knowledge and was looking for some help. The horse is approximately 8in from bottom to horse head, and approximately 8in long. I believe it is made of paper mache or something similar and is decorated/painted. There are no identifying features of this horse, no names, inscriptions, etc. Accompanying the horse is a very old photo in a copper frame, measuring around 4in tall by 3 in wide. Possibly a tin type or earlier, though cannot tell, has me stumped. In the photo it is what appears to be a deceased young girl maybe 7-8 years old. In the photo she is smiling, holding a horse. It is the exact same horse that I have in my possession. To ad to this interesting find, the horses tail is made from a braid of the deceased girls hair. The wooden platform in which the horse stands was added after the photo, likely to be a pull toy? The wheels are hand carved from wood and all nails are very old style. Is this commonly found, or is this a more rare find? Is there a market for this? Can anyone date the horse/photo? What would an item like this retail for in an antique shop? Any and all information would be helpful. Thank you all in advance for your opinions and input on this. It has left me scratching my head. Whether it is worth a lot or a little, it is a very neat piece.  
Title: Re: Old Photo & Folk Art Horse -- Please Help! Civil War? Rare?
Post by: bigwull on September 29, 2012, 03:30:30 PM
are you here there or somewhere else...it does help.....to know...
Title: Re: Old Photo & Folk Art Horse -- Please Help! Civil War? Rare?
Post by: sapphire on September 29, 2012, 03:31:22 PM
diamondjim, if this horse can be dated (approx) I'm sure there would be good value for it in itself. But.......with the obvious connection between the horse and the little girl it would be a shame to separate the two. Have you taken the picture out of the frame to check for any indication of a name or location?  

It's hard to tell from your photo, but are the little one's eyes closed?  To me they appear to be, but that could just be shadows. I am getting a strong feeling this is a postmortem tintype, taken to remember a lost loved one.

If this is the case, personally I would do all I could to track down the family and try to reunite them with such a touching remembrance.

I know others here will be most helpful in trying to date the picture based on clothing and hairstyle......to me it would appear to be last half of the 1800's to very early 1900's (at the latest).
Title: Re: Old Photo & Folk Art Horse -- Please Help! Civil War? Rare?
Post by: ghopper1924 on September 29, 2012, 03:36:27 PM
I've never seen anything like it. It's an amazing little piece.

It's definitely a memorial to the little girl, and it uses so-called Victorian death art, not to mention "hair art" which you usually see in the form of braids formed into abstract patterns or flowers and placed in shadow boxes.

This is very sweet and touching, and if you can locate a descendent that would be ideal.

However, that may be unlikely. The good news is that this has to be worth something to collectors of all of the above. No idea about value, but I don't think it's insignificant.

Date: 1890-1910.
Title: Re: Old Photo & Folk Art Horse -- Please Help! Civil War? Rare?
Post by: frogpatch on September 29, 2012, 03:38:10 PM
I would agree with everything that Sapphire says. I get such strong  feelings from this that it literally made the hair on my arms stand up. Looking at the wheels on the horse it looks like pull toys I have seen form the mid to late 1800's. I think you have an awesome find here and like Sapphire advised, keep it together. It is not only about value but the history of someones family. Carefully look inside the frame. You never know what may be in there.
Title: Re: Old Photo & Folk Art Horse -- Please Help! Civil War? Rare?
Post by: diamondjim12 on September 29, 2012, 03:39:24 PM
bigwull: I am not sure what you mean? What are you referring to? Thanks

sapphire: Yes, the eyes are closed, this does appear to be a postmortem photo. I have had it out of the frame and there are no markings. There are none on the horse. I doubt there will be any chance of finding out who the young girl was. Thanks for your input. 
Title: Re: Old Photo & Folk Art Horse -- Please Help! Civil War? Rare?
Post by: diamondjim12 on September 29, 2012, 03:46:02 PM
Thank you all for your input. Yes, it is a moving piece. When I first acquired it I did not notice the child in the photo was deceased due to the smile, though the closer I looked it appeared as if she was staged with the horse for the photo. Yes, I plan on keeping both together, I think that is what makes the horse so neat, to have a 100+ year old photo of it. I do not plan on selling it anytime soon, I was looking at the value for insurance purposes for an appraisal.
Title: Re: Old Photo & Folk Art Horse -- Please Help! Civil War? Rare?
Post by: sapphire on September 29, 2012, 03:46:33 PM
bigwull was wondering where you are located........quit e often it helps with narrowing down a search.  ;)  Was this something that was in your family, was given to you or you acquired at a sale?
Title: Re: Old Photo & Folk Art Horse -- Please Help! Civil War? Rare?
Post by: diamondjim12 on September 29, 2012, 03:49:27 PM
Oh okay Sapphire. That makes sense. I am located in Florida, though this was acquired in New York. My guess is this originated from the north east United States, though cannot be positive.
Title: Re: Old Photo & Folk Art Horse -- Please Help! Civil War? Rare?
Post by: frogpatch on September 29, 2012, 03:50:56 PM
Yours is much nicer than this one
http://www.ebay.com/itm/VICTORIAN-ANTIQUE-Hand-Painted-Made-PAPIER-MACHE-WOOD-HORSE-PULL-TOY-w-WHEELS-/271037037102?pt=Vintage_Antique_Toys_US&hash=item3f1b10fa2e

Can you get us a better shot of the photo?
Title: Re: Old Photo & Folk Art Horse -- Please Help! Civil War? Rare?
Post by: diamondjim12 on September 29, 2012, 03:54:26 PM
Frogpatch: Thanks, that looks similar to the horse that I have. Do you think the value of mine is more than the $125-$150 they will likely get since it has the hair and photo accompanying it? I will list another photo. Thanks
Title: Re: Old Photo & Folk Art Horse -- Please Help! Civil War? Rare?
Post by: sapphire on September 29, 2012, 03:58:41 PM
I'm thinking the platform is original to the horse, the photo added later. The little one's dress appears to be obscuring much of the platform from what I can see. Do I detect a split in the belly of the horse? Possibly to allow for room for the photo?
Title: Re: Old Photo & Folk Art Horse -- Please Help! Civil War? Rare?
Post by: diamondjim12 on September 29, 2012, 04:03:52 PM
Sapphire: Yes there is a split in the horses belly and I do believe that is there for the addition of the photo. Upon closer examination of the photo it does appear the wooden platform is there.
Title: Re: Old Photo & Folk Art Horse -- Please Help! Civil War? Rare?
Post by: sapphire on September 29, 2012, 04:19:05 PM
I can tell you there is no way in hell I would be able to let go of that memorial even if I had no personal ties to it.  I'm glad you're looking into an insurance value and not a resale value.  ;)
Title: Re: Old Photo & Folk Art Horse -- Please Help! Civil War? Rare?
Post by: sapphire on September 29, 2012, 04:30:09 PM
Played with the photo a bit trying to get a better look. Possibly 5 - 7 years old?  You could likely gauge that better having it in hand, using the space her hands take up on the horse.

I really must stop looking at her picture, I'm becoming too attached. :(
Title: Re: Old Photo & Folk Art Horse -- Please Help! Civil War? Rare?
Post by: ghopper1924 on September 29, 2012, 05:45:39 PM
Yeah, 5-7 years old. Her clothing and hair are consistent with an 1890-1910 date.

Title: Re: Old Photo & Folk Art Horse -- Please Help! Civil War? Rare?
Post by: Rauville on September 29, 2012, 06:27:50 PM
Here's an interesting, although somewhat morbid article on the subject.

http://ostrobogulation.com/2011/05/11/memento-mori-victorian-era-postmortem-photography/ (http://ostrobogulation.com/2011/05/11/memento-mori-victorian-era-postmortem-photography/)
Title: Re: Old Photo & Folk Art Horse -- Please Help! Civil War? Rare?
Post by: mart on September 29, 2012, 06:31:04 PM
bigwull: I am not sure what you mean? What are you referring to? Thanks

sapphire: Yes, the eyes are closed, this does appear to be a postmortem photo. I have had it out of the frame and there are no markings. There are none on the horse. I doubt there will be any chance of finding out who the young girl was. Thanks for your input. 

He means your location !! Here in the states I assume !!  Things like this were quite common during the Victorian era !!  They did odd things after people died !! But it was common practice !! Good thing about your find is the pic and horse are still together !! As far as value,, not what one would think !!  Only ones it would mean a lot to is the family of the girl !! Exceptions to that would be if it ties in to a person of historical interest or an event !!
Title: Re: Old Photo & Folk Art Horse -- Please Help! Civil War? Rare?
Post by: ghopper1924 on September 29, 2012, 06:37:36 PM
Collectors of Victorian post-mortem art or hair art may also be interested, due to the uniqueness of the presentation.
Title: Re: Old Photo & Folk Art Horse -- Please Help! Civil War? Rare?
Post by: mart on September 29, 2012, 07:52:16 PM
Yes !!  There is a following for that too as well as anything funarary connected and odd !! When I had my shop I bought all the old pics I could find that was a lot !! Could get a basketfull for $5.00 !! Ran across a lot of pics like this !!  Many were babies under 2 years old !!
Title: Re: Old Photo & Folk Art Horse -- Please Help! Civil War? Rare?
Post by: diamondjim12 on September 29, 2012, 08:27:11 PM
Thanks you all for your replies. Also, thanks for the link to that article on this style of photos. Creepy to say the least. Again, this was acquired from New York.
Title: Re: Old Photo & Folk Art Horse -- Please Help! Civil War? Rare?
Post by: fancypants on September 29, 2012, 08:35:36 PM
Interesting funerary/memorial display piece , diamondjim12 .

I'd agree with the gen'l age timelines suggested by other members here (90's-10's) .

I am curious to know how it is that you know the 'horse-tail' was from the deceased childs' mane ?
Title: Re: Old Photo & Folk Art Horse -- Please Help! Civil War? Rare?
Post by: Kimmienemo on September 29, 2012, 09:20:19 PM
OK.  I am going to really let my "freak" flag fly here. . . so don't everybody gang up on me all at once. . .

Many of you have mentioned the extremely strong emotion that you experience when you look at this picture and the horse.  Perhaps, Diamondjim12 lives in a community where there is a "reputable" psychic (one that is used by police/law enforcement agencies) that might be able to take a look at this item and pick up on some of the energy.  At least enough to perhaps to begin to find out where she was from and possibly a family.  I know with the popularity of Ancestry.com and the use of the internet, more and more research is being successfully online.

I'm sorry if that sounded too "out there," but there are just too many things that can't be explained to discount things just because we can't "prove" they do or don't exist.

I think after this post, I am going to have to change my signature line. . .  :-\
Title: Re: Old Photo & Folk Art Horse -- Please Help! Civil War? Rare?
Post by: mart on September 30, 2012, 10:22:31 AM
This type thing was not unusual for that time !! Normally it would have stayed with the family !! Maybe some of them decided it was a strange thing to keep around !!
Title: Re: Old Photo & Folk Art Horse -- Please Help! Civil War? Rare?
Post by: greenacres on September 30, 2012, 04:17:41 PM
Rauville very interesting article and pictures. The poor siblings must have been traumatize. Can you imagine being a child taking a picture with a dead sibling.
Title: Re: Old Photo & Folk Art Horse -- Please Help! Civil War? Rare?
Post by: kidden6968 on September 30, 2012, 07:41:12 PM
Greenacres I had the same thought looking at the other children in the picture.  Kind of creeped me out a bit last night.  And the article was definitely a bit creepy with the pictures but also sad that it was common that might be the only photo a family would have.   :'(
Title: Re: Old Photo & Folk Art Horse -- Please Help! Civil War? Rare?
Post by: mart on September 30, 2012, 08:31:11 PM
Back then photos were a rarity and not many could afford them !!  If they were going to spend money on a photo,, it would have been for the most important happenings !! Pretty nice tribute I think !!
Title: Re: Old Photo & Folk Art Horse -- Please Help! Civil War? Rare?
Post by: greenacres on September 30, 2012, 08:59:50 PM
I agree, but have them take the pictue by themselves. I saw some that were really nice where the child was with her dolls, or dressed like an angel.
Title: Re: Old Photo & Folk Art Horse -- Please Help! Civil War? Rare?
Post by: jondar on October 01, 2012, 12:05:33 PM
Quote:  "I think after this post I will have to change my signature line..."

Not from me you won't.  FWIW several years ago I found on a famous Indian Wars battlefield (not the Custer but famous) with my metal detector, a Model 1858 Remington revolver in relic concition.  I couldn't help but wonder who the owner had been.  The battle took place on a heavy rainy day, and was plunged down into the soft earth barrel first, indicating the past owner was wounded.  A man whom I worked with for years told me that his aunt was a certified Minister in the First Spiritualist church in Kansas City, MO and he knew she would love to see it.  I called the lady and she said yes she would look at it. I made the three hour drive and when she unwrapped the gun she ran her fingers over it, open her eyes wide and said, "Why this is an Indian gun, I see tall tall rocks all around the area."  That perfectly described the locale of the battle.  She went on to tell me that the last owner died the day the gun was lost and went on to describe how the gun came into the hands of the Indians. I'm as cynical as they come but she made a believer out of me.  Look at it this way, what can you lose.
Title: Re: Old Photo & Folk Art Horse -- Please Help! Civil War? Rare?
Post by: Kimmienemo on October 01, 2012, 12:47:51 PM
Thanks, Jondar!  I think it is kind of strange. . . I have a degree in biology with a minor in chemistry, and an advanced degree in technology.  However the more I know, the more I know how little I really know and how much in the world is still unknown.  Just because we can't prove something exists, doesn't mean that it doesn't!

Thank for understanding what I meant.