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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: hosman321 on November 25, 2012, 11:24:10 PM
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Hi everyone! I bought this old bench on Craigslist today and I would love to know more about it. Mostly an approximate date and possibly country of origin. I believe it to be English, early 18th century. Obviously, the travesty of sanding it has removed it's gorgeous patina, history and a significant portion of it's value. But I got it at a very low price so I am just glad to have it and save it from their cold garage.
Some of the pictures are mine, some are from the ad. Luckily, the underside of the lid appears to have it's original patina. Although it's probably not half as dark as the outside once was. It has snipe hinges and beautiful decorated hardware. All hand carved. Some modern-ish nails in places. Original feet. I will go take a picture of the carving at the bottom of the bench and some of the inside, too. I am thinking about leaving the wood as-is and giving it a coat of beeswax. Tales suggested maybe mineral oil and then beeswax. Any help or advice is greatly appreciated!
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Beautiful! Even with the sanding! Looking forward to seeing what everyone has to say about this one. The hardware looks good to me as well as the patina on the unsanded areas, but I am not a furniture expert, so I'll sit back and learn!
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I'm getting the feeling that it's an early 18th century box/chest married to a later back and arms.
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This is a Monk,s Settle...i think its all the one piece...probably mid to late 19th century...and I wish it was ours....take your pick of these
http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=monks+settle&hl=en&tbo=u&tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ei=G2OzUPzRMuTC0QW67YDwAw&sqi=2&ved=0CHUQsAQ&biw=1024&bih=651
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Have to go with Bigwull on this one,, just from what I can see !! I might date in a bit earlier if I could see it in person,, but from what is showing,, thats what I would guess !! Its gorgeous whatever it is !! Want to ship it to Texas ?? LOL
Where have you been anyway !! Missed you here !!
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After looking at those photos Wull may be right after all.
If your question was for me Mart then the answer is that I've been here I just haven't seen much of interest lately!
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Nice bench, just remember the old adage...
"Wax once a day for a week,
Once a week for a month,
Once a month for a year,
And once a year for life."
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What about the forged iron hardware though? That's all done individually by hand. Although it seems possible in the late 19th century, it doesn't seem likely to me with plenty of mass-manufactured options available by then, it would have been an unnecessary expense. Any thoughts on that?
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Hard to say from the photos but it could go either way. The hand-forged hardware could easily set the box/chest back to the 1700s as I mentioned before but it's also quite possible for the 19th century as well particularly the first 1/2.
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Hard to say but one would assume that in a monastery nothing was wasted !! Hardware could be earlier and just reused !! My opinion was from style of the bench !! Its not as heavy as some from earlier dates !! Has a lighter look !!
Actually it was for you and hosman !! Was wondering if you had read Antique Talk lately ?? There is a post about Steuben glass you might be interested in since high end glass ware is your (and a few others) forte` !!
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Yes that Steuben thread was a good one. You made a good point re: Replacements. Com. They tend to be unrealistically high.
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We have been discussing Ruby Lane off site as a possible sales venue,, Or have you used them for either buying or selling ?? What is your opinion as far as a good place to sell higher end glassware !!
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I think "Ruby Lane" would be a great place! It's much more high end if you want to get your price. I think people know what they're looking for there and expect to pay the realistic price.
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Don't know how it is to sell there but it's great for high-end buying.
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Ruby Lane would be much better than Ebay or Craig's List!
I am wondering if it was a homemade item that married two pieces in original construction. That wasn't unheard of. Everything was used! Wonderful piece! Without a hands on...I would be guess-timating from late 1800's.
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Someone else (I think Ghopper) had the same opinion !! Could be !! Guess we can all go to Hosmans and check it out !! I like it !!
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Ruby Lane would be much better than Ebay or Craig's List!
I am wondering if it was a homemade item that married two pieces in original construction. That wasn't unheard of. Everything was used! Wonderful piece! Without a hands on...I would be guess-timating from late 1800's.
That was my original question. However in looking at the hardware it looks more like a "ye old" hand-done evocation of the 16th or 17th centuries rather than the real thing. I've got an oak box from 1620 and the hardware does not look like this. Kind of a mystery but I think Wull was right. Incidentally the "monk" moniker was more of a romantic buzzword to sell furniture rather than an indication of actual ecclesiastical craftsmanship.
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As time rolled on you are correct !! Anything similarly made was called a monks bench !! But I will give the monk the benefit of doubt !! Mostly because I can`t see its use otherwise !! Sitting for any length of time would be very uncomfortable !! Maybe a cushion is missing ???
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The only cushion a monk had was the cheeks of his bum,...No creature comforts for them....
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You got my point Wullie !!
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You got my point Wullie !!
Oh!...yeah...there are time,s when i can be a bit slow on the uptake....and other times when i,m as sharp as a needle....and with you Mart....i,ve got to be on my tootsies.... ;D
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Lemon Oil everyday for a week, every week for a month, every month for a year and every year forever. A product called Briwax can restore the original patina as good as can be expected. Nice piece.
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Thank you everyone for your comments! I think mine may be 19th century after all. I'm posting more pictures. It is all hand carved but the cut/saw marks on the inside are a bit confusing. There are traces of what looks like faint red milk paint on the underside of the lid along with the dark patina. I could be seeing things though. It seems that all of the construction is with wood dowels but there are nails and screws of varying ages where places of damage or loosening joints were. None of the nails or screws look older than 1890s or so. I can still see the pencil marks from when this bench was made. Seems like if it were sanded recently, those would be gone? Maybe it had been painted and just stripped?
*edit- From help from tales and a bit of research, they do look like pit saw marks, which was less popular after 1860 or so. But of course, still could be used today.
Sorry I've been gone lately, I started to breed bengal cats and they take up all of my time and energy! I haven't forgotten you guys at all!
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a few more...
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We were comparing the pit saw marks on my old china hutch to those in the second to the last photo. Here is the china hutch for comparison, this photo is in the Saw Marks topic in the Special Threads section of this forum. Be sure to view Hosman's photo in full size to see the saw marks.
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x124/talesofthesevenseas/ChinaCabinet/ChinaCabStraightSawMarks.jpg)
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I believe it to be English, early 18th century
Hmmmmmm, no, i dont think so. The carving is crude and the wood does not appear to be oak. I would guess this is an imported repro of a monks or hall bench, mid 20th century done in the jacobean or mannerist style. Agrees with ghopper1924 on the hardware, it's not period plus the way it's mortised into the top of the chest is again, quite crude. Google antique monk/hall bench and you'll see tons of this form.
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Jacon, you always have a way of letting me down gently when I'm really excited about something. I thank you for that.
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lol, i was modifying my post when you posted! Sorry, wish i could have better news on your piece and this is really out of my field of interest but it's just not a period 17-18th century piece. Take a look at this guys site, great pics, authentic pieces of 15-17th century english furniture forms.
http://www.marhamchurchantiques.com/
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Plus, does it really matter if it's period or not? The main thing to me is, do i like it. I think a decorator hit the nail on the head recently when she said " I dont care about antiques, i care about interesting things to live with".
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I believe it to be English, early 18th century
Hmmmmmm, no, i dont think so. The carving is crude and the wood does not appear to be oak. I would guess this is an imported repro of a monks or hall bench, mid 20th century done in the jacobean or mannerist style. Agrees with ghopper1924 on the hardware, it's not period plus the way it's mortised into the top of the chest is again, quite crude. Google antique monk/hall bench and you'll see tons of this form.
it does help if you read previous posts....we,ve been to Google and back again... ;)
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Plus, does it really matter if it's period or not? The main thing to me is, do i like it. I think a decorator hit the nail on the head recently when she said " I dont care about antiques, i care about interesting things to live with".
Actually, it does matter if it's period, from a financial perspective if nothing else. The difference in price between this monk's settle and a box from 1600 is significant! It also matters if you care about antiques, their craftsmanship, and the stories they tell as opposed to a "look."
Not that there's anything wrong with having a well decorated house. ;)
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Well, i was speaking in todays world where antique furniture must compete with many other competitors for house furnishing dollars. Period antique furniture today is clearly losing that marketing battle because of many factors, some of which have been discussed on other threads here. So, "does it really matter" if it's period? To a few old farts like myself and antiquarian's yes, but to the market place in general, NO. There has NEVER been a better time to buy period antique furniture in my lifetime as many of my contemporaries have discovered when they sell their collections. Period pieces are selling for less today than they did 30 years ago and with some forms, ALOT less.
I would add the decorator was not dissing antique furniture, she was simply stating the reality of trying to make a living with helping people decorate their home.
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I agree with Jacon...here,...why does it always have to be about money...i,m of the opinion that whoever buys antique furniture...as an investment...needs their heads looking into...they will never fully enjoy living with what they have bought...for the simple reason...their always thinking "how much is this worth now"...."has its value increased"..."oH! its losing money"....whereas those that buy what they like...without thinking of it as an investment...will enjoy what they,ve bought.....and Not be wanting to slit their wrists if the arse falls out of the market...like it has over here for dark furniture.."simples"
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That's why my motto is "love what you buy." I've watched the value of mycollection drop by orders of magnitude but that's softened by the fact thar I love the stuff anyway. Why? Because these items have all the good qualities of genuine antiques and therefore have lasting value whatever the market may do.
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Yep, agrees, i either have an emotional connection to a piece when i first look at it or, i do not. If not, i keep looking. I think this is what the decorator was saying here, if its a period piece that meets that test, fine, if its not period though, thats fine as well.
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Agree
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Darn! It's still lovely though!
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Check this out from Marhamchurch, very similar form.
http://www.marhamchurchantiques.com/antique/late-elizabethan-joined-oak-box-chair/
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nice piece of oak...but...i,m of the opinion,anyone paying over 5 grand for this...needs their head looking into.....
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Well, didnt look at price but as with most pieces, the price is most likely negotiable.
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being a canny Scotsman cross Ukrainian...the price is uppermost...unless you,re one o, they rich Americans..then price disnae matter.... ;D ;D
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I like that site, he is a very knowledgeable dealer about early english furniture forms, really great pics plus he's very mindful about connecting Thomas Dennis ( americas most celebrated 17th century joiner) to any piece that is attributed to the shop where Dennis served his apprenticeship, to bring in the odd yank who might be interested. All in all, first rate web site.
Another point to keep in mind is, chairs are almost always going to be expensive because they are very rare in this era, only kings, queens and wealthy head of households sat on chairs, everyone else sat on stools. Indeed, in America, there are only 20-30 17th century wainscot (frame & panel) chairs known to exist.