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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: benno699 on December 04, 2012, 02:51:48 AM
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Hi all I recently had an Antique Map (~280 years old) framed only to have it suffer water damage from the shower upstairs leaking down through the roof into the frame...
This has however perhaps turned out to be a blessing in disguise since it turns out the framer used PVA glue and glued the map to a piece of MDF...
He insists the map will be fine and its a matter of "Opinion" on weather or not PVA glue and MDF is damaging to the map.
I was hoping for some expert advice on the area.
Regards
David Bennett
(Australia)
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If the map suffered H2O damage ........ then how can it be "just fine".
Sounded like the framer was telling you to ....... "just give it an aspirin".
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Take it to a different framer PDQ !!
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If your map stuck to the MDF, I would be more concerned about a possible health issue..rather than your map...MDF...contain s Formaldehyde,and it is one of the most toxic chemicals that can invade the human body. It is a known carcinogen and tissue irritant...Whilst most of the health issues associated with MDF..are with the dust that is emitted when it is cut...there is a concern when it is wet...as MDF is very absorbent...there is a chance that formaldehyde..can be transferred...and absorbed through the skin....so my advice is ..as a precaution when handling this map and board..wear a mask and latex gloves....
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Only place that uses formaldehyde anymore is China !! But can`t figure out why a framer that should know better would do such rather than use a cheap acid free backer board made for paper items !! I have had a few things museum framed and acid free and that is the standard for most frame shops !! I am wondering if what they are calling MDF is masonite ?? No reason to glue the map but its a pretty safe base if so !!
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You may think that Formaldehyde is only used in China Mart...but i can assure you its not...see link...and this is only one company....
http://www.kronospan-worldwide.com/products/medium-density-fibreboard-high-density-fibreboard/
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http://www.kronospan-worldwide.com/environment/our-journey-to-low-emission-products/
Did you read this page of it ?? Sounds pretty good to me since California has the most stringent regulations of almost all the states and they meet or exceed them with an E-0 or E-1 !! About the same as natural wood !!
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Not every country...has such stringent..laws when it comes to the use of MDF...there,s a lot of high formaldehyde content MDF...around on the planet...and while i,m on the subject of Formaldehyde...you,d be surprised at how many other products contain it...take for instance....Red Bull...energy drink....it does,nt say it on the tin..but after it gets into your system...formaldehy de...soon becomes apparent.....the sales slogan for Red Bull...is "it gives you wings"....maybe sooner than you think.... ;D
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Never touch that stuff !@!
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Mart you and Wullie just crack me up. I sit and try to imagine what your voices sound like spouting off verbally what you have typed! I definitely get a good chuckle!!!
Okay, back to the thread....If your item was framed I am concerned why it was glued to MDF in the first place. I would recommend that you take it to a reputable map worker/framer and see what you are looking at. Not saying that the original fella didn't do the best he could and it was a standard in your area.....but water exposure is water exposure....which is a "threat" to the integrity of the piece. So, sleep better and get it checked out.
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Thanks all, it seems the guy is dodgy and so now the map could be lost since the original cost was around ~$450 AUD and repairs have been quoted as between $700-1500. I'm seeing a guy next week about who will give me another quote.
I feel fairly upset about this since I purchased the map as a reminder of my time in Ireland and the UK and looked at it as an investment as well that I had earned. Now it could all go to shit thanks to one negligent framing store. Seems he might have outsourced the work and they just did a cheap arse glue job to a piece of MDF.
Important lesson learnt for me.. I'll be chasing up reimbursement of the framer so wish me luck.
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I'm beginning to think some of you guys n' gals are trying to "brainwash" me into being a neurotic treehugging greenie that's afeared of living anda scared of dying which will make me so nervous and cited I'll be smoking 3 packs of cigarettes per day instead of my normal 1 3/4 packs/day anda I can't give up the cigarette smoke because it dilutes all that deadly dangerous CO2 gas that's pollutin da air that's gonna kill me justa soon as those global temps getsa hot my house catches on fire before all the ice melts and the rising sea water drowns me fore I getta chance to bury all my antiques and collectibles to prevent another unsuspecting sole gettin hold of those deadly dangerous items and suffering the same fate as me.
So, ...... here's hoping that the EPA and FEMA will save my arse before those end-times come, ..... that is iffen the Mayan Doomsday don't get me on 12-21-12.
Meanwhile, some lifesaving advice from ...... Home Depot, .....
Medium Density Fiberboard (MDF)
MDF is made by breaking softwoods down into individual fibers, which are then glued and pressed together. MDF is denser than particle board and has a smooth finish that takes paint very well, making it a great choice for interior projects. MDF can also be used for built-ins, cabinets, raised panels, or simple furniture.
http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/catalog/servlet/ContentView?pn=Plywood&storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053
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I'm beginning to think some of you guys n' gals are trying to "brainwash" me into being a neurotic treehugging greenie that's afeared of living anda scared of dying which will make me so nervous and cited I'll be smoking 3 packs of cigarettes per day instead of my normal 1 3/4 packs/day anda I can't give up the cigarette smoke because it dilutes all that deadly dangerous CO2 gas that's pollutin da air that's gonna kill me justa soon as those global temps getsa hot my house catches on fire before all the ice melts and the rising sea water drowns me fore I getta chance to bury all my antiques and collectibles to prevent another unsuspecting sole gettin hold of those deadly dangerous items and suffering the same fate as me.
So, ...... here's hoping that the EPA and FEMA will save my arse before those end-times come, ..... that is iffen the Mayan Doomsday don't get me on 12-21-12.
Meanwhile, some lifesaving advice from ...... Home Depot, .....
Medium Density Fiberboard (MDF)
MDF is made by breaking softwoods down into individual fibers, which are then glued and pressed together. MDF is denser than particle board and has a smooth finish that takes paint very well, making it a great choice for interior projects. MDF can also be used for built-ins, cabinets, raised panels, or simple furniture.
http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/catalog/servlet/ContentView?pn=Plywood&storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053
you,ve just made my day cogar... ;D ;D ;D.i,had a few drams too many last night...and woke up about 10 mins ago feeling like a bull wi a sare heid...and ma mooth wiz like the bottom o. a parrots cage....but on reading whats ailing you...has made me feel a helluva lot better....coupled with the fact that i,m only on 5 hand rolls a day......but having said that....you know the old saying cogar.....you die if you worry...you die if you don,t....so why worry....
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LOL KC, Thats part of the fun around here !!
My entire family was in the construction business while I was growing up and I have been around all that stuff that people are having fits over today !! Asbestos insulation, Johns Manville siding, All types of fiber board over the years,, we have burnt it, ripped it off and out of houses, and squeezed water out of it when wet !! Seems the paranoia occurs just before a newer product is released by a competitor !! Only thing I am fearful of is the new low wattage light bulbs !! I won`t use them !! Screwed one in and smoke came out of the bulb !! I thought ,, this can not be good so I stay with the old style !!
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Yepper Mart...we were raised with all of that stuff that they have now said is deadly! (asbestos insulation, lead glassware, pesticides, etc)
The current day MDF (aka Medium Density Fiber) is safe and used ALL THE TIME inside! It is lighter than some woods and resistent to warping when exposed to moisture so it has always been a choice for furniture in the modern days.
My concern is that they didn't "dry fit" the map with the MDF. If it is framed, then the MDF/Frame pressure would hold it in place and no glue would be necessary. If it is frame less...only on MDF... then the gluing to it would make more sense! But I believe benno699 stated it was "framed". (The gluing to the board would be more economical but wouldn't insure the value of the map.)
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Normally when paper items are framed, even on MDF, they use the gel-tack type or double face tape on the corners or sides which holds the item in place, then tiny spacers between the glass and the map !! These are easily removed !! I see no reason I can think of to glue it down if framed !! I wonder if the map was framed here or in Ireland ?? They may use different methods !! Or the framer didn`t know what he/she was doing !! Perhaps the idea of having it cleaned/restored/repaired never occurred to them !!
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You said it better than I thought it Mart! Thanks!
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Picture framers don,t have crystal balls...when he was framing this map...a leaking shower...was never on his horizon...a nice dry safe room wall was what he had in mind...so i don,t think he can be held accountable..for the water damage to the map/frame...i,d be more inclined to be having words with the plumber who installed the shower....and if words did,nt help...then a more drastic solution would be found
.
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Normally when paper items are framed, even on MDF, they use the gel-tack type or double face tape on the corners or sides which holds the item in place, then tiny spacers between the glass and the map !! These are easily removed !! I see no reason I can think of to glue it down if framed !! I wonder if the map was framed here or in Ireland ?? They may use different methods !! Or the framer didn`t know what he/she was doing !! Perhaps the idea of having it cleaned/restored/repaired never occurred to them !!
..as for having it cleaned or restored...if it had been under glass as it should have been then...there would be no need to have it cleaned...or restored...but...th en we have a plumber/shower installer...who has made a pigs arse of fitting the shower...which now brings me to ...house insurance....depend ing on what type of policy they have..it may be possible to claim..for said damage....
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Point is,, you just don`t glue an antique map to anything !! At least,, not without the permission of the owner !! Its possible that it is wheat paste rather than a glue and if so it can be removed with a steamer like you use on clothes !! Its the same as wallpaper paste !!
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There,s No Point!!..Mart,...here we are debating an alleged water damaged antique map...that,
1)...we have never seen...
2)...No I.D.marks on the Map that we,ve never seen....
3)...it has an alleged value of AUD 450....but its going to cost almost double to remove said unseen map from equally unseen bit of MDF....
4)..PVA.glue??...again alleged...when dry PVA...is a clear glue...almost indistinguishable from wallpaper paste...
5)..unless i see a clear pic of this otherwise mysterious water damaged Irish Map...that may or may not..have a Leprechaun...dangli ng from it...I,m saying no more.... ;D ;D
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Mart, you know those people from Scotland...they have to see it to believe it. He thinks making point system out of this resolves it! He He He....
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Mart, you know those people from Scotland...they have to see it to believe it. He thinks making point system out of this resolves it! He He He....
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LOL !! Laughing so much I forgot what I was going to say !! Be right back ,,,,, !!
Well, since all the person asked for was information and opinions,, mine still is,, take it to another framer !! I realize PVA dries clear and is used for some things but it also takes water or moisture to remove it and with some items, depending on the type of paper can cause yellowing that I would not want on my map, antique or not !!
I am just taking for granted that the poster knows his own map !!
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There,s No Point!!..Mart,...here we are debating an alleged water damaged antique map...that,
1)...we have never seen...
2)...No I.D.marks on the Map that we,ve never seen....
3)...it has an alleged value of AUD 450....but its going to cost almost double to remove said unseen map from equally unseen bit of MDF....
4)..PVA.glue??...again alleged...when dry PVA...is a clear glue...almost indistinguishable from wallpaper paste...
5)..unless i see a clear pic of this otherwise mysterious water damaged Irish Map...that may or may not..have a Leprechaun...dangli ng from it...I,m saying no more.... ;D ;D
And I thought Missouri was the "show me" state! We must have gotten it from Scotland back in the day.... ;D ;D
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I will break my silence..."don,t all Boo at once"...if this map is made of parchment type paper...then freeze drying..is the best way..of minimizing damage to the inks...
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There,s No Point!!..Mart,...here we are debating an alleged water damaged antique map...that,
1)...we have never seen...
2)...No I.D.marks on the Map that we,ve never seen....
3)...it has an alleged value of AUD 450....but its going to cost almost double to remove said unseen map from equally unseen bit of MDF....
4)..PVA.glue??...again alleged...when dry PVA...is a clear glue...almost indistinguishable from wallpaper paste...
5)..unless i see a clear pic of this otherwise mysterious water damaged Irish Map...that may or may not..have a Leprechaun...dangli ng from it...I,m saying no more.... ;D ;D
And I thought Missouri was the "show me" state! We must have gotten it from Scotland back in the day.... ;D ;D
Of course it must have come from over this side of the pond...after all, any Americans I,ve ever met all tell me that they have Scottish/Irish..roots...unless it came from the original inhabitants of Missouri....the.
Chickasaw, Illini, Ioway, Missouri, Quapaw, Osage, and Otoe Indians... ;D ;D ;D
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The "Show me"state nickname comes from the 19th century definitely post-euro settlement.
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The "Show me"state nickname comes from the 19th century definitely post-euro settlement.
Well!!....that,s not really true...is it.... :D....you,re just a couple of hundred years out.... ;D
Geneviève is the oldest permanent European settlement in Missouri. It was named ... Jacques-Nicolas Bellin's map of 1755...
you were saying....
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Good research Wull, but I was referring only to the origin of the nickname "show me state." The most common story is that it came from a politician's speech back in 1899. Definitely post-St. Gen and post-statehood. ;D
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Well in that case we,ll call it ...eachy/peachy.... ;D