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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: ironlord1963 on December 13, 2012, 11:26:01 AM
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We have what appears to be a very old Religious Book / Text That was donated to use, and we are in need of information or leads that may answer the question of what it is. It appears to be on some really early paper, very rough and fiberous, and written in a language we are not familiar with. It is several pages and has a cloth and hand tied Binding on the top. It is 21" x 14" in size, and condition is poor. Anyway hope someone can help us, this appears to be something special
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3 more Pics
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Its quite possible that the paper..is Parchment...or maybe Vellum...as for translating...could you not scan it into an online translation service...that auto translates...i use this one...http://www.bing.com/translator
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Any clue to where it came from (who donated it) and was anything else with it?
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First not sure We can scan it as it is very fragile. and no we have no clues to where it came from. One thing for sure we think this could be worth a few $$$.00 If we can get enough clues to post it.
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As you were able to post pics on here.. why don,t you print off the pics A4 size then scan them that should be easy enough...
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I guess I am not quite understanding how this works yet, The site need a web address apparently, I may be able to get some better pics today and go home and work on this, but being at work right now I have limited time.
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I can be fairly certain that it is not Egyptian, Greek, Roman, Arabic or any language derived from them. My best guess would be a type of brahmic writing (coming from India, but used throughout South/SE Asia - my line of work brings me there fairly often, so it looked familiar). I would suggest looking into Burmese, Shan, Cham, Lao, or possibly Malaysian, first.
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O.k. after spending some time I am starting to think this Burmese, still can't figure out how to Translate using the net, no even sure which side is up yet. It is possible that this is hanging upside down. anyway I will keep looking and hope I can get enough information to make a good post.
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Do you use a Google browser? If you do click on more. There is a translation tab.
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It can be translated...if you upload these pics to your PC...then copy and paste them on to the translation site that i gave
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Do you have a university with a language department near you?
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There is a slim possiblity that it could be Hebrew.
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First Bigwull I did try and it came up as it was not able to translate, I will try and get some better photos today and try again. KC I did write the University of Washington Language Dept. last night have not heard back yet. Also email a local Buddist Temple too maybe they can help, don't think it is Hebrew, just does not look right. Still think it is Burmese, but being hand written it can be hard to tell from us unexperience. Thanks for all the help Thus far, really need to pin this one down before we post it for sure.
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I asked the question to one of my writers groups on LinkedIn. It is a global community of English speaking writers. My friend Parsi from India had this opinion. It will give a couple clues where to look.
"Certainly not Sanskrit. It could be Thai, Burmese, or Sinhalese (Sri Lanka). If you note the flow of the characters, they are circular in nature. Sanskrit, on the other hand, uses quite a lot of straight lines. This is why it is tough to write in Sanskrit on papyrus."
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yes and by the way for who thought it is in hebrew so in not written in hebrew. :)
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If you look at the sample of Burmese script in the link below and scroll to the bottom, you will see some similarities. For example the characters with the separate little o above or separate little c shaped mark above. Also the character that looks like a lazy s. Take into consideration that the book is handwritten and the samples are printed. My handwriting only bares a slight resemblance to the correct cursive form I was taught in school. I imagine there are variations to Myanmar also. The writing was derived form 6th century Mon which came from Indian Brahmii from what I have read. I don't know if it is Burmese but I think we are in the right part of the world. It may be 1000 years old or more which would make a difference. When you finally have a definitive answer please let us know. I am totally intrigued by this.
http://www.omniglot.com/writing/burmese.htm][url]http://www.omniglot.com/writing/burmese.htm (http://[url)[/url]
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"The Center for Burma Studies at Northern Illinois University is the national center for Burma studies in the United States. Its current director is Catherine Raymond. The center publishes the The Journal of Burma Studies, a joint publication made in collaboration with the Burma Studies Foundation and the Burma Studies Group of the Association for Asian Studies. There is also a lot of activity in Burma studies at the University of Michigan, Cornell University, L'Institut national des langues et civilisations orientales, the University of Hawaii, the National University of Singapore, Tokyo University of Foreign Studies, as well as in Universities and Institutes in Burma (Myanmar), such as Yangon University, Mandalay University, and the Historical Research Centre."
Here's the contact for Northern Illinois University http://www.grad.niu.edu/burma/contactus/index.shtml
http://www.grad.niu.edu/burma/index.shtml (http://www.grad.niu.edu/burma/index.shtml)
Maybe one of these can help!!!
I WOULD NOT POST IT until you find out! If it is a valuable transcript of sorts the University may even compete for it!!!!
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Thanks again to my writer friends from India I have these two images for you to look at. The one is Tai Lue which is a modern language that dates to 1200. The others are labeled samples. I think you can narrow it down. The Tai Lue look remarkably like it.
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Me thinks maybe Ironlord's post 1 pictures are upside down.
Here is one flipped 1/2 turn, whatta ya think.
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YUP, after posting this it looks better to ..... for whater that's worth.
The script is now "on" the lines, not underneath them.
Who knows, a 6-pack or 3, .... squinting both eyes ...... and reading extra fast I just might be able to ..... to ....., nah, forgeetit. ;D ;D
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I thought so too at first but the little o shaped characters in all of the samples I have seen are always above a character and not below. One person that viewed it said it may be written form right to left. ??
Here is another link http://www.ancientscripts.com/dhivehi.html provided by another group member.
Imagine this conversation.
"Honey, what do you want to do with this ancient and probably priceless piece of Middle Eastern History?"
"Just give it to Goodwill. I am tired if trying to figure the language out. Let it become someone else s obsession."
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Here is another view, ..... flipped horzontially from the above one ..... which puts the "straight" margin on the left .... and the text "overrun" on the riight side.
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Something about those lines makes me think this may not be as old as we think !! I think this is a copy of an older text !! I have never seen an old text with spaced lines !!
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http://www.ancientscripts.com/brahmi.html
This is the same link that Frogpatch gave above !! They have examples of many ancient scripts !! I checked Tibetan and Brahmi and it isn`t either !! Maybe someone wants to research it !! Its an excellent site !!
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I can be fairly certain that it is not Egyptian, Greek, Roman, Arabic or any language derived from them. My best guess would be a type of brahmic writing (coming from India, but used throughout South/SE Asia - my line of work brings me there fairly often, so it looked familiar). I would suggest looking into Burmese, Shan, Cham, Lao, or possibly Malaysian, first.
I agree that the document was originally posted upside down. I still think it is brahmic language, which means that it would be read from left to right, but agree that a university would be the best place to find a definitive answer.
Also, note that Shan is a dialect of Burma (Myanmar), so you may want to look into that separately.
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Funny you Should mention Shan. I got my first reply back from one of the many emails I have sent.
Hi Albert,
That's an interesting piece and I can read some of it as Southern Shan (the script would be called Lik To Moan) from the Shan State of what is now Myanmar. I read modern Shan, and this one is probably over a hundred years old. The paper is probably Jae Sa, or a kind of pulp paper. Looking at the text it's either a fairy tale or a family story, as there are a number of characters mentioned. My older Shan reading isn't so fluent -the script is different -(it's like asking a scholar of Victorian English to read middle English) but it sure is Shan.
Cheers,
Jane
This is my first reply back so I am making some headways.
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Cool! I've really been enjoying following this one!
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Me too enjoying it, ...... keep us posted on your progress.
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O.K. it got posted yesterday, Lets see what happens. Here is the link in case you want to follow it.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Book-Document-Handwritten-Old-Shan-Language-Burmese-Myanmar-/400372190218?pt=Asian_Antiques&hash=item5d380acc0a
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Why is the shipping so high on this item?
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The reason..the shipping is so high is,probably because,...as you will notice the start price is very low..with no reserve..so lets just say this item..only attracts one bid...Goodwill will only pay a final value fee on the $9.99..the postage costs are exempt.from fees...so they will most likely be making something on the shipping....Technic ally...this is not allowed by ebay....but more and more sellers are doing this...to counteract ebay,s high fees..."it swings & merry-go-rounds"
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eBay charges a fee for shipping now that is almost equivalent to the final value fee percentage wise. My guess would be the heavy plexi glass case that it's in.
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Well, they are not doing it in the UK....yet....
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When I see an artificially inflated shipping fee I usually don't bid out of principal.
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I could,nt agree more....
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Actually it is not inflated at all. It is the Plex. Total weight for the item I think was just over 20lbs. That case is thick and heavy, as for the low start, all are items start at 9.99, and shipping is calculated based on weight, with only a $2.00 handling fee added. Overall we loss on the shipping at goodwill, last year we lost almost 20K to shipping cost, this is based on Packaging and etc., and does not include the wages of the 4 shipping people we have. All and all we are not at a loss considering we do about 10 mil a year in sales, but the accounting dept. screams at us all the time. Business have to keep the cost seperate. We have tried to convience the management to allow for us to start our auctions higher and offer free shipping, but I guess this is a nightmare for accountant. I think alot of people don't really realize what shipping cost actually, I get it at home too cause I add $2.00 handling, and I still get some who try and talk me down to under my cost to ship because others on Ebay are cheaper, but they are not they just add it to the cost of the item. As for the fee since we are non profit we get most of our fees back. I hope this helps for you folks to understand the cost. When I posted it I put it on a scale and that is what it cost, actually I will cost more.
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Now that we know that its being shipped within the plexi glass case...and weighs 20lbs...then the price is a bit more realistic...but what annoys me..is the inconsistencies with these various shipping companies..a few years ago..i sold an item on ebay...to a buyer who lived in CA,..the weight of the item..was 95kg..this included a custom built crate...I shipped with FedEx..and paid £215...which was a great price...
approx 6 months later...I saw an item on American ebay..and was going to buy it...it weighed 76kg packed...the seller quoted me...£549 for postage...with UPS....when i asked the seller if this was the cheapest rate they could get...they said it was....i did,nt buy it....
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Thanks, that makes more sense.
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Not to tell you your business, but it may not be a bad idea to mention that in the listing. That's what I assumed when I saw the price, but other may not.
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Sorry to be behind the 8 ball here, but did you decide not to take it to a museum? It still seems like something that may belong there. Was there any more clarification on what the manuscript may be, besides a family- or fairytale in shan? I have sent your pictures to a colleague from the provence to see if I can get more info. I will check back with them after the holidays, but am worried that the piece may have sold by then.
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I don't think taking it to a museum is an option here, unless they or their members bid for it. It was donated to Goodwill.
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I think it was meant that a museum could possibly shed more light on what the manuscript says for sure !!
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Yes I agree, but the management would not, I did have some one at a Burmese College in Ill. wanting us to send it to them to look at it, but I ask, even though I knew the answer. However something happen today and I not sure what. It was ended at work, I was not at work to find out why, but I will find out on wed. I will keep you posted as I am really curious now why they ended the post.
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They must have decided it was worth researching further and pulled the auction. Fill us in on Wednesday please!
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Or ..maybe someone made them an offer they could,nt refuse....or in the worst case scenario someone placed an injunction on it...to prevent its sale....
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Turns out one of the big bosses at work wants to look into this item a bit more, so it was ended until we can find out some more. This is a good thing usually it seem for the most part they don't care too much about what the item is and we just post and see. Maybe this will be a trend to look a bit more on items that could be special. Again I will start to dig some more and I will let you know about any further developements.
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Good news. I hope you can find someone who can tell you more about it!
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I'm so glad! Maybe the Center for Burma Studies at Northern Illinois University mentioned earlier will have some answers? Best of luck and keep us posted - no pun intended :)
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Great news to hear. Let us know what you find out!!!
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Hi Ironlord - I finally heard back from my colleagues in Burma, and, unfortunately, none of them recognize the script as Shan. That doesn't mean that it's not an ancient script, just that, in 2013, they can't read it. Sorry not to be more help, but I was wondering if you had heard any more back.
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Agree kesgill! Inquiring minds want to know!
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Turns out one of the big bosses at work wants to look into this item a bit more, so it was ended until we can find out some more. This is a good thing usually it seem for the most part they don't care too much about what the item is and we just post and see. Maybe this will be a trend to look a bit more on items that could be special. Again I will start to dig some more and I will let you know about any further developements.
Good idea
Is it all text ? I've seen Burmese religious / educational books like this.