Antique-shop.com
Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: talesofthesevenseas on December 21, 2012, 01:15:45 AM
-
Once again I have stumbled upon an antique doll that has captured my heart. Meet "Rebecca". According to the seller, this is an Acadian rag doll doll found with a woman in her nineties in rural Louisiana. Pinned to her dress is as note that says Grandma "Rebecca". I don't have her in hand yet, but the only condition issues noted are some age staining. She is made from flour sacks. it looks like the time period during which it was popular to make flour sack dolls was around the 1920s to 1930s, although rag dolls have been found even in ancient Rome. The body and dress are machine stitched, (lock stitch not chain stitch) so the technology would date her to post-1850s more likely 1880's and later.
Does 1920 seem like a likely date? The clothing style may be earlier. I am not sure if Rebecca is a baby in a christening gown or a lady in a bonnet!
How does a person value this kind of doll? Looking at other examples on Ebay and other sites it seems to have more to do with opinion and the cute factor than artistry or age. Values are all over the place.
Any thoughts? I will post more photos once "Rebecca" is in hand. These photos are from the seller. I paid $38.00
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x124/talesofthesevenseas/Rebecca6_zpse020b3ac.jpg)
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x124/talesofthesevenseas/Rebecca1_zpsc754a941.jpg)
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x124/talesofthesevenseas/Rebecca2_zps07d139d1.jpg)
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x124/talesofthesevenseas/Rebecca5_zps90a20ac8.jpg)
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x124/talesofthesevenseas/Rebecca4_zps42463958.jpg)
-
Whilst I can,t profess to be an expert on sack cloth dolls...i, think you are a bit out..with dating this doll at around 1920....i would have thought around ..."18-oatcake"..."Scottish saying"...when exact date is unknown.... :D
-
It does look potentially older to me too. I was playing it safe with 1920. I am hoping I will have a better sense of the age when I have the doll in hand.
-
I know nothing about dolls whatsoever, but the overall look + lace looks more like 1890 - 1910.
-
Awesome! Who cares when it was made. It is how it was made by whom and where. I think it is a great example of Americana.
-
Thanks, I loved the homespun look of this doll right away and the X's on the eyes! I think seeing the details in person will help. The little rose should be a good indicator of age, if it was homemade from ribbon, or store bought. The seller says that the body is stuffed with cloth, possibly handkerchiefs or more flour sacks. Whatever the age, there is no question it was pieced together from this and that, which is really cool. My thought is to collect a couple of flour sack dolls to go in a basket on the floor of my kitchen.
-
Thanks, I loved the homespun look of this doll right away and the X's on the eyes! I think seeing the details in person will help. The little rose should be a good indicator of age, if it was homemade from ribbon, or store bought. The seller says that the body is stuffed with cloth, possibly handkerchiefs or more flour sacks. Whatever the age, there is no question it was pieced together from this and that, which is really cool. My thought is to collect a couple of flour sack dolls to go in a basket on the floor of my kitchen.
Oh..a widnae pit the on the flair...yon wee moosies micht get a hud o them...they jist luv flour sacks.... ;D
-
My kitchen is a moosie-free zone ;D
-
Looks like a christening gown to me, but that is primarily an Eastern orthodox and Catholic tradition...which would be strange because of the age. There were not large communities of Catholics in the country until more recently.
-
My kitchen is a moosie-free zone ;D
Ours as well,..thanks to Poppy and Flossie...our two cats... ;D
-
My kitchen is a moosie-free zone ;D
Are you aware Tales...that although ...you may not have the luxury of hearing the patter of tiny feet scampering across your kitchen floor...there is every possibility..that within 3 ft of you...is a set of slightly larger..feet scampering about....for!...statistics show...that for every person in the civilised world..there is a Rattus Rattus within 3 ft of them....comforting thought is,nt it... ;D
-
I live in the middle of a redwood forest, so this can be a problem here. However I found a solution. We feed a small herd of feral cats, who now live outside and underneath the house. Semi-feral is a better way to describe them. They were all born wild, but they have been with us so long that they all let us pet them and one or two can be picked up and held. The few meeces that are foolish enough to dare to venture into the yard, are taken out in short order.
-
There the best kind of cats to have...one ours was a feral...she adopted us...and she is a prolific hunter.she keeps the field mice at bay...during harvest...and is capable taking down a rabbit..which to Avrils annoyance..is frequent...Avril sees them as bunnies...Avril ..also does,nt eat venison...because she thinks Bambi...
-
"Rebecca" arrived this morning and she is absoutely spectacular. I will post some detail pics later. I don't see anything modern here. Here are some things I've noted:
**The body is stuffed with printed fabric that looks like flour sack cloth. You can see brightly colored floral fabric through the body fabric.
**There is a lot of staining, so much that it almost looks faked, but it is consistant with protected areas of the dress, like inside pleats and folds are light colored, exposed outer areas are age stained. Looks like she was put carefully away for a very long time and not moved much, not laundered and not ironed, but packed away.
**Everything is very stable, no loose seams and no holes.
**All the machine stitching is straight stitch, like what I do on my treadle machine. No zig-zag stitching anywhere and not perfectly done. No doubt this is homemade.
**The rose on the waistband is definitely handmade and not secured with plastic like the modern ones, it is hard, and coiled and formed ribbon, hardened with some type of starch to hold its shape.
**I'm discovering that machine made lace can be very old, it was available in the early 19th century, so that does not help to pinpoint a date. The lace is clearly not modern and definitely antique, especially the brown lace hanging from the bow which is quite soft and fragile. Here's a great article on identifying handmade and machine made lace: http://www.dressandtextilespecialists.org.uk/Lace%20Booklet.pdf (http://www.dressandtextilespecialists.org.uk/Lace%20Booklet.pdf)
**All of the fibers are cotton, I pulled apart a thread that was loose and unattached, it was definitely 100% cotton, no polyester core.
**The note is not paperbag. The paper has a soft feel to it like it may even contain some kind of fiber. It looks like it was originally in the shape of a heart, and the point is gone. There was more, I can see two loops of the next line of text, but it's gone. and
Grandma's "Rebecca" is what is left. To my surprise, the note does not appear to have stained the dress like you would expect from acidic paper.
**The safety pin holding the note was brass, on the underside of the dress you can see the color, on the exposed part it has tarnished. Looks like it has been there a long time.
**The writing on the note is definitely fountain pen ink and not ball point. I know we learned to write with them in the 1960's in grade school, but it was an outdated technology at that point and not commonly used.I think the note could be dated to 1940-ish at the latest because of that?
So if we are talking about a person who was a grandma in the 1940s I think Rebecca must be turn of the century or earlier, does that seem right?
-
As you have the hands on..and your technical knowledge..of stitching..and fabrics..far outweigh what many of us know...I will nod my head in full agreement...with all what you have said...
-
I know nothing about dolls whatsoever, but the overall look + lace looks more like 1890 - 1910.
Like I said.......
-
Yes, I think you and Bigwull both got the date right. ;D
-
Here are the details. I guess it was bothering me that the face looks more 'cutesie' than any antique rag dolls I have seen before. More like something someone would make now to look old. There are so many primitive dolls that are age distressed to look old. But there just isn't anything on this doll that isn't antique and even under magnification, everything looks old, aged and authentic.
Here's an up close shot on the gown. Look at the weave of the fabric, the way that the fabric is light in the folds where it was protected and dark on the exposed surfaces. That's 'doll patina' LOL! Look also at how the lace is made. I do think it is machine made because it is very consistent throughout, but it looks like old machining and not modern mass-produced. (see the article on lace posted earlier) It is soft, light and delicate old cotton, no feel of artificial fibers.
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x124/talesofthesevenseas/RebeccaClothLace_zps22a7dfdc.jpg)
The note up-close, looks like fountain pen with the occasional blobs of ink, especially on the G in Grandma's
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x124/talesofthesevenseas/RebeccaNote_zpse20b83e4.jpg)
Up-close on the ribbon and rose. The rose is folded and spiraled from a ribbon. The lace tied into the bow looks more like it might be handmade. It's very soft, fragile, fine and feels very, very old. Probably something salvaged from an older dress.
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x124/talesofthesevenseas/RebeccaRibbonRose_zpsf0ebd969.jpg)
Under the gown looking at the body, you can see it is stuffed with printed fabric.
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x124/talesofthesevenseas/RebeccaFabricStuffing_zps4727386d.jpg)
Here's the full length, I do think she is intended to be a baby. The gown is twice as long as her body.
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x124/talesofthesevenseas/RebeccaFullLength_zps97203e68.jpg)
Up close on the face.
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x124/talesofthesevenseas/RebeccaUpClose_zps738b4e1d.jpg)
-
A good, detailed analysis 7Seas. You could be a "doll appraiser!"
Agree that the garment resembles a christening gown, thus reinforcing your opinion that this is meant to be an infant.
-
This is interesting, I posted the photos on the Ebay doll forum. They say she's a fake and age-distressed. If she's faked, someone made her with antique materials. I may have to run her into a doll shop for a hands-on.
-
"It looks like a duck, smells like a duck, is made like a duck."
Seems like a duck to me! ;)
-
I am hoping for a duck LOL, but either way, she's a keeper, and I think I will learn a lot on this one, however it turns out.
-
she is soooo pretty, and so refreshing to think how imagination was magic once upon a time.
-
Well gang, I think it is turning out that our dear Rebecca is a folksie-fakesie! Two things are bothering me. The face seems too cute to be antique and I am not seeing rust staining from the pin or acid staining from the paper. Have a look at the comments from the Ebay doll forum: http://forums.ebay.com/db1/topic/Dolls/Confirmation-Of-Id/5100126349 (http://forums.ebay.com/db1/topic/Dolls/Confirmation-Of-Id/5100126349)
-
I can't believe someone would assemble all these vintage/historic materials, stuff that passed the authenticity test with you and the antiquers in this forum, all for $38.00!!
It seems absurd.
I was not able to open the link on my kindle BTW.
-
I'll run her over to the doll shop to be sure. It's not too far from where I work. I do believe that the seller believes her to be authentic, I think if we have a Repro Rebecca, it was done some time ago and not by this seller.
-
I can't believe someone would assemble all these vintage/historic materials, stuff that passed the authenticity test with you and the antiquers in this forum, all for $38.00!!
It seems absurd.
I was not able to open the link on my kindle BTW.
The only kindle,I know is the little sticks i use to start up my woodburner... ;D
-
We shall see. The materials look and feel authentic, but I'm bothered by a few things. If I had to be wrong about one of my antiques, I don't mind it being this one. I didn't spend much and it will be a good learning experience. Everyone gets taken in by a well-done repro at some point, even museum curators, historians and long-time collectors. The note gets me though. Putting a handwritten note on a reproduction just seems like it would be almost a malicious effort at deception. But again, it's not a big deal and I will learn, learn, learn!
-
Agree about the note, and the price still seems low for such subterfuge. But, like I said, what do I know about dolls? ;D