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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: hettie2000 on January 12, 2013, 12:32:39 PM
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Hi, I have been given this engagement ring - it belonged to my great aunt, who married in 1920 in Cheshire, UK. I have been told it is probably 1890s, but the ring doesn't appear to have a hallmark. I've been looking on the web to identify the 'D'-in-a-diamond mark (and the '5') but had no luck. Any help would be appreciated.
It's a lovely ring that I intend to treasure :)
Thank you!
(http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j33/hcowell2006/ring/IMG_2820a_zps6fe8f14a.jpg)
(http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j33/hcowell2006/ring/ring5_zps7354fe81.jpg)
(http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j33/hcowell2006/ring/ring4_zpsb14e753d.jpg)
(http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j33/hcowell2006/ring/ring3_zps07f41ca3.jpg)
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What,more do you need...the 18ct...is what it is...that,s your hallmark....Gold... unlike silver...does not carry...crowns, lions, leopards..anchors,..etc.etc..
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Thanks bigwull ;D! I didn't know that about gold. Just to explain, I took the ring to the jewellers for cleaning today and was told there was no hallmark - but I wasn't sure what they meant.
Could the 'D' just indicate the diamond? What about the '5'?
I'm particularly interested in the age of the ring and possible place it was made... my great aunt's mother moved to America... there's a family history that I'm looking at.
Thanks again, I appreciate your response :)
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I,ll have to eat some of what i said previously...after further searching...i found that gold indeed can have...all the afore mentioned symbols....Although all jewelry (with some exemptions) is thought to require a full array of stamps, jewelry was usually - prior to 1973 - exempt from hallmarking with the exception of wedding and mourning rings[1] [2]. One will therefor find many items from British origin that bear only a maker's mark and a purity mark. The full array should also include a date letter and an assay office mark and these were struck at the request of the purchaser..The French used a Letter within a diamond..as their date...symbol....
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Beat me to it. Makers mark is b (or d can't tell from pic) in the diamond and purity is 18ct. No other hallmarking.
Wonder if it was sized at the jewelers? If the 5 is for a size 5...then it is a more modern ring. Older pieces they didn't write sizes on.
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Thanks again bigwull... we've been searching the 'net at the same time... and I also realise my question about hallmarks must have sounded a bit odd. I just didn't know much about gold hallmarking (or not) but I've learned a lot! Now it's interesting that you mention the diamond/lozenge shape could indicate France... my great aunt's mother went to France before she travelled to America. Hmm. Of course, it could just be coincidence.
KC - I just noticed your post - thanks! The ring is only small, it fits my little finger. I'm not sure what size it is though. It's at least 1920s as far I know?
I'll keep searching the web for that maker/date mark :).
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The 5 would be the size !!
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The 5 would be the size !!
Thanks Mart! I measured the circumference - it's about 50mm - according to Wikipedia that agrees with a US/Canadian size 5!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_size
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That's what I was thinking....
Still a nice ring. Pretty design. Great to have history on family items!
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I had that same mount back in the 60`s early 70`s (no stones) it was in a bunch of jewelry I got at a garage sale I think !! One I had was larger about a size 7 or 8 !! Way too big for me !! Inside was too scratched up to read !! Have you checked the U.S. for that mark !!
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I spent yesterday evening looking for the mark and realised just how many there are - it's like looking for a needle in a haystack! Haven't found it yet :-/.
I'm a bit confused that the hallmark (18CT) uses the English convention whereas the sizing seems to be US?
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Few things you can check, are Designer marks and Manufacturers marks !! This ring doesn`t have a "hallmark" !!
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Few things you can check, are Designer marks and Manufacturers marks !! This ring doesn`t have a "hallmark" !!
OK... so do I mean the purity mark? Is that correct? 18CT? Sorry, but I'm not an expert!!!!
I am looking for the designer/manufacturer mark, but no luck so far. Was hoping someone might recognise it :).
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Correct,, I said that so you would not waste time searching that term !! I already tried it !! LOL
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LOL! Thanks for trying, Mart :). There's a lot of information on the web but it doesn't all agree! I've got nowhere with the maker's mark - there's hundreds of them! It's obviously not easy to identify... but I've learned a lot in the process ;-)
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Ok, so I'm new here, and don't really know anything, but I LOVE a good Google search challenge....
Does THIS PAGE (http://guide.diamondpriceguru.com/diamond-and-ring-basics/ring-settings/hallmarks-whats-engraved-inside-my-ring/) help you guys out at all? Or have you dismissed it due to irrelevance? I noticed most the "A Letter" part:
A Letter
The letter, whether it is upper case or lower case, and the shape surrounding it, combine to indicate the year the piece was formed. Each May, a different assay master was appointed and held office through the following April. To match a precious metal piece to the assay master who oversaw its assessment, a system of revolving letters was used, one per assay master’s one-year term. Twenty letters of the alphabet were used; J, V, W, X, Y, and Z were not included. Each letter was used in turn, five times per century. Each time the letter came into rotation it was varied in style or in the presentation of its surrounding shield.
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Hi BDB!
The letter in the diamond shape is the makers mark on this one. This isn't hallmarked (which would have made it much easier had it been). the 18ct is the purity and the 5 is the ring size.
I am betting this was from a larger maker due to the fact the ring size is on it.
Jewelers are a different breed. Some adhere to hallmarking. Some don't. Many try and import hundreds/thousands of items to sell while a trend is in. While others prefer to make their own, one-by-one, painstakingly. A person may make only a few pieces in a lifetime and thus their mark never gets renowned.
This may take while, but hopefully sometime soon it could be deciphered.
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The design of this one just doesn`t look turn of the century to me !! I an betting a mid century design !!
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Ok, so I'm new here, and don't really know anything, but I LOVE a good Google search challenge....
Thanks for your effort! I love a good challenge too, part of the reason I'm still looking for the ring's manufacturer lol.
This may take while, but hopefully sometime soon it could be deciphered.
Oh I hope so... it feels important to know what I can about this little ring :)
I an betting a mid century design !!
Hi Mart, which century are you thinking of? I've seen 2 or 3 rings of similar design on eBay all claiming to be late 1800s? I'm not sure if they were date stamped though...
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I meant 1900`s !! Somewthing about the style just doesn`t look like that time period !! Looking at rings online is a crap shoot !! People say many things to make a sale !! But can they prove it ??
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I doubt there's much more value here other than it's intrinsic value - all in the gold and the diamond
What i'll say about the marks - would the Victorians have stamped 18ct in such a manner ? It's far more in keeping with early 20th.
Goldsmiths tended to use an incuse 18 back then
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No they didn't use it back then. Feel it is post WWII.
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Victoriana did fall into early 20th century...
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For a whole year.
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A very long time....for some people...or the blink of an eye...for others....you remind me of a Mutt i once had....i had to keep him on a short lead... ;D...btw....you,d be better off getting rid of that key..... ;D
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What are you on about ?
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Harry Palmer would,ve known what i was talking about...you,ll have heard of him.....
there,s no point being full of one thing....if you don,t,have an inkling...when somebodies turning the key that,s been sticking out of yer back... ;D ;D
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Don`t feel bad Ipcress,, I have no clue either !! Totally lost !!
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Don`t feel bad Ipcress,, I have no clue either !! Totally lost !!
The Ipcress File is a 1965 British espionage film directed by Sidney J. Furie and starring Michael Caine, aka...Harry Palmer... ::)
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I was referring to the dog stuff.
Blimey.
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Okkkk... what happened to this thread?
Ahem.
I learned that the diamond of this ring is held in a 'Belcher setting'. Quite a few of this design come up if you google it. According to the following website, it tends to be an American design: http://www.woodenskate.com/wsvc/shortcase/pages/glossary/main.html
I found an online book listing hundreds of maker's marks for English goldsmiths but didn't find the 'D in a lozenge/diamond'. But I did come across a couple of references to similar marks on other websites, including this one: http://www.trocadero.com/stores/modemodern/items/632156/item632156.html
As for age, my great aunt married in 1920 and the ring has always been in the family. It could have been bought later, I suppose, but there hasn't been any mention of it :-\
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1920's or a bit earlier would be fine in my opinion for that style and the typeface used on the marks.
The lozenge mark could be a retailer.
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Thanks Ipcress :). Hmm, I'll have a look for retailers of the time instead...
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I enlarged the Trocadero link and looked at the mark on it and it looks like yours !!
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http://jarrett.fabpage.com/jewelrytm5.htm
Here you go !! This company had two marks,, yours and an upright diamond with HD inside !! From New York so it is an American ring !!
Checked on the company and found out that it was founded in 1936, and also used Dason trademark, but when and in what order these were used, havent found yet !! Did read somewhere that trademarks were for a certain number of years so any jeweler could possibly go through several variations !!
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Wow Mart!!! Thank you so much! I'm a very happy person *does a little dance*
I do a lot of family history research, and the surprise gift of this ring plus the help you (and others) have given me here has helped solve one of my family mysteries ;). It's a really lovely ring and means all the more to me now!
PS I just saw your edit... we're cross posting lol...I will check it out, but it's very promising and I'm still a happy bunny ;-)
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Still digging on this !! Problem is in cross checking same company on different sites to make sure info is correct,, spelling of the name is different !! Don`t think that is a problem on this one because all lists same product,, rings,, and mostly wedding rings,, as what they made !! Sometimes it just takes a bit more looking !! Will update if new info is found !!
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I found this newspaper article dated March 1924;
(http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j33/hcowell2006/Trademark-AnnieAndertonengagementring-Davidson-MeridonMorningRecord24Mar1924_zpsd76af475.jpg)
If it's the same Henry Davidson, he was a salesman in 1924... and he lost rather a lot of diamonds!
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I don't think a jewellers in New York would have a ring marked 18ct.
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That's what confused me earlier in the thread, Ipcress - why would the ring be marked '18CT' (UK) but size '5' (US)? I've measured the ring and it does seem to be a US size 5. Could it be imported and then marked?
Too confusing! Maybe I'll never know for sure...
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I checked the UK registry marks and there is nothing even close !! Also checked other rings with the mark and all had the same ct rather than K and all were from same company !! Its always possible that Davidson was not born here and immigrated from the UK as many did !! There are no rules as to how it has to be marked so maybe he just used what the UK did !!
One thing of note is,, his mid century rings are very collectable now and some pretty fair prices compared to others !!
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Like you, Mart, I haven't seen any other marks that are even similar...
I have found Henry Davidson on the US census - purely out of interest - and he was from Russia. He settle in NY in 1890 and his two sons continued the business until the 1970s by the looks of things. On the 1930 census, Henry describes himself as a 'wholesale merchant (of) jewelry'. I don't know how these things work so this may sound daft (!) but could he have been importing the gold bands and adding the diamonds himself?
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I checked the UK registry marks and there is nothing even close !! Also checked other rings with the mark and all had the same ct rather than K and all were from same company !! Its always possible that Davidson was not born here and immigrated from the UK as many did !! There are no rules as to how it has to be marked so maybe he just used what the UK did !!
One thing of note is,, his mid century rings are very collectable now and some pretty fair prices compared to others !!
Could be, but there's another D in a diamond / lozenge on that same page and they won't be the only ones in the world.
Davidson's trademark was Dason and although this could have been made prior to that being registered, the D within a lozenge would not have been a registered trademark.
The family seem to be American. Henry, Sydney and Leo ran the company. Famous promoter Bill Graham worked in their shop.
It's a nice ring and but in my opinion is not stylish enough to be of much value, if any, above it's value in the gold and the diamond. It's probably worth more to Hettie for sentimental reasons.
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That's what confused me earlier in the thread, Ipcress - why would the ring be marked '18CT' (UK) but size '5' (US)? I've measured the ring and it does seem to be a US size 5. Could it be imported and then marked?
Too confusing! Maybe I'll never know for sure...
It could have been made to order and it's a shame the true history has been lost ( if temporarily )
I've seen it before though - a family are adamant about the age of an item and you examine it and by the registered marks or whatever immediately know it's not that old.
People will also check Ebay where sellers often get dates wrong or claim something is older to try and increase it's value.
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The other mark has a period after the D. !!! It wasn`t mentioned by hettie2000 so was assuming it didn`t have one !!
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Nice find Mart!
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I checked, and there's definitely no period after the 'D'. I understand what Ipcress means, that it's a fairly simple trademark and has probably been used more than once. There is a back story to the ring though, and taken together it makes some sense that the ring is possibly American.
[My great aunt's mother disappeared in 1903, and I have found out through a lot of research that she travelled to New York. My great aunt was the eldest child and age 14 at the time - she married in the UK in 1920 and left this ring (supposedly her engagement ring) to her niece when she died. And now it has been given to me. I didn't expect the ring to have a connection to the US, but it intrigues me that my great aunt may have had some contact with her mother over the years...]
Thanks again everyone, you've given me plenty of food for thought!