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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: Number13 on February 08, 2013, 06:18:08 PM
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Hi, I've been doing a little hunting trying to help my mother with a bed that she's had in her posession for several years now. What I know about the bed is what she told me.
The bed is 17th Century, purchased in New Orleans, LA from producer Judy Garwood, who in turn pruchased the bed from Ralph Lauren, who was said to have brought it to the US from England and used it to model his Medeival (curtain) Collection. I am not sure of any history prior to that. I am also not sure of any markings that may be on the bed, as it is my mother's, and currently not in my possession. I also tried locating the previous owner, but have had no such luck.
If anyone here may have any knowledge about these particular pieces, your help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!
Here are some pictures:
(http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg283/SuedeSkinTools/Miscellaneous/IMGP0001.jpg)
(http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg283/SuedeSkinTools/Miscellaneous/IMGP0002.jpg)
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Looks familiar. Like something from Tom Jones or Taming Of The Shrew
And is worth a lot of money. The provenance is a bonus.
Can you take an image of the front posts, please ? They are hidden by the curtains
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Wow, impressive!
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Thanks! I'm not sure if these were recent or older, so I'll see if she can get some pics of the posts if she doesn't already have some.
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http://www.platformbeds.com/History-of-Beds_ep_58-1.html
Here's the history of beds. You'll find it interesting.
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Partly why i'd like to see the posts. It's a tester, but is it all original ?
Will need to be looked at first hand by someone
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You have written documentation about the provenance ??
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http://www.periodoakantiques.co.uk/antique-four-poster-beds/a-very-pretty-17th-century-carved-oak-four-poster-bed-english-circa-1670-29-stockno-1068/
I think your bed is nicer. Check out web site.
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Wow, thanks for the links! And yes, very interesting on the history! I will definitely see what else I can find out about it and it's history tomorrow when I can talk with her on the phone.
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http://mbryner.fatcow.com/jimwuerstlin/gallery/view_photo.php?set_albumName=album44&id=E9_P7084807
This bed is 1646. Flemish $30,000.00
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Is this a rope bed ?? And do you have written provenance ??
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Well...great story of background. Ralph Lauren (born Ralph Lifshitz) is still alive...try and get in touch with him! Believe it or not, crazier things have been done! :) Need to have written history (establish provenance).
Now that said, it is in itself an amazing bed. So just from the the bed itself has lots of value. But a good story of established provenance can enhance the value.
Unbelievably gorgeous bed!!!!
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Amazing!! 30K seems about right....))
Also, check out an English site that specializes in furniture such as this. I don't have the link handy, but it's called Marhamchuch Antiques.
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Oh, I'll have to check it out! Thanks ghoppher.
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I tried to find this Judy Garwood,, found none with any reference to being a producer so the question is,, producer of what ?? Also looked up Ralph Laurens Medieval Collection and found little !! Only three named patterns for curtains in that collection that I found !! You would think that if he had used this bed for those pics it could be found somewhere !! At least would help prove that he had owned it !! Did your mother buy the bed from this person directly or a shop ?? Although New Orleans is well known for some of its antiques it is also known for quality repro`s that are passed off to buyers !!
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This is true mart. I couldn't find anything either, not even an ad, but maybe they do have documentation. They haven't answered back yet. Have they? :-\
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No !! Still waiting !!
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I just spoke with my mother on the phone and she is going to get some more pictures for me so I should get some with the posts visible. I also told her to look around wherever she can to see if there are markings. She also keeps correcting me when I mention Ralph Lauren's "Curtain" Collection and says it is his "Bedding" Collection.
As for written provenance, she says that she had a bill of sale and cannot locate it, but it probably only had this Judy's name on it... so as for the whole Ralph Lauren story, and whether it is true or not, without any proof, it is only just a story. Which is why I told her to locate any markings if she can. She also says that it is not a reproduction.
I asked her again about the previous owner Judy Garwood, and she doesn't know what she is a producer of, but says that she did see her one time on a documentary called "Hauntings In New Orleans" and in this documentary she must have been inside her home because my mother said that when she recognized her, she kept waiting for her to go into her room to see if the bed was in there.
Oh, and the bed was originally in a shop on Magazine St called Hooters and that Judy and the owner had some sort of falling out in which she took back all that she had there on consignment including the bed and ended up somewhere else which is when my mother relocated her and purchased it from her.
I asked her if we could contact the shop where it was located and she said he probably wouldn't be a very helpful because she was trying to purchase it there and when Judy removed it and sold it on her own the owner was furious about it.
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Is it possible the owner was 'Julie' Garwood?
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There were quite a few Julie`s listed But only three Judy`s !! Even so without a provenance of some kind that is indesputable its just a story !! So you would have to focus on construction details and even that is questionable !! I said reproduction and I should have said "copy" because many were copied in the years after the original was made !! Even through the 1800`s !! Thats why I asked if it was a rope bed ?? Any other type would have been made much later !! Even if it has been refitted the holes would still be there !! That is how beds were made then !!
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Agree, would like to know if this was a rope bed as well! Please advise!
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http://www.marhamchurchantiques.com/
He usually has 17th century tester beds available but i dont see any at the moment. He had a 50% off sale over the holidays and sold alot of his stock. I would contact him as this is all he handles and knows a great deal about english pieces of medieval thru the 17th century.
I would add that there are no American 17th century frame & panel beds known to exist. Guesses the few that were made ended up as firewood.
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She said that this was brought from England !!
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LOL, Yes Mart, i know it's english, was just pointing out that there are no known american beds of this type/period that are known to exist, which is kinda a shame.
Matter of fact, there are only 20 something american frame & panel chairs known at this time. This is considered the Pilgrim era in american furniture or more exactly the "Pilgrim Century" 1620-1720.
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Sorry Jacon4 !! Just thought you might have missed that part of her post,,,should have known better !! You don`t miss much !! LOL
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That didn`t make sense either,,, I need another cup of coffee before I type anything else !!
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I just spoke with my mother on the phone and she is going to get some more pictures for me so I should get some with the posts visible. I also told her to look around wherever she can to see if there are markings. She also keeps correcting me when I mention Ralph Lauren's "Curtain" Collection and says it is his "Bedding" Collection.
As for written provenance, she says that she had a bill of sale and cannot locate it, but it probably only had this Judy's name on it... so as for the whole Ralph Lauren story, and whether it is true or not, without any proof, it is only just a story. Which is why I told her to locate any markings if she can. She also says that it is not a reproduction.
I asked her again about the previous owner Judy Garwood, and she doesn't know what she is a producer of, but says that she did see her one time on a documentary called "Hauntings In New Orleans" and in this documentary she must have been inside her home because my mother said that when she recognized her, she kept waiting for her to go into her room to see if the bed was in there.
Oh, and the bed was originally in a shop on Magazine St called Hooters and that Judy and the owner had some sort of falling out in which she took back all that she had there on consignment including the bed and ended up somewhere else which is when my mother relocated her and purchased it from her.
I asked her if we could contact the shop where it was located and she said he probably wouldn't be a very helpful because she was trying to purchase it there and when Judy removed it and sold it on her own the owner was furious about it.
There are a few Judy Garwood's in the film / theatre biz. One had a very small part in Paul Newman's A New Kind Of Love. Could be she became a producer but didn't do anything of note.
Also find it interesting that the author Judy / Julie Garwood went to school in New Orleans, LA.
And there is a different 69 year old Judy Garwood living in Baton Rouge now.
Only video i can see called The Haunting Of New Orleans is an edition of Top Chef. There is a " Haunting Of Louisiana " book and video.
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I didn`t even find that much !!
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How about Judy Garland? Now, THAT would be coin of the realm in terms of provenance! Absent some really famous celeb, i think the value of this bed would pretty much be determined by it's condition, is it in fact a period piece, etc. rather than someone who is relatively obscure.
If it was me, i'd contact marhamchurch first, deal with provenance later.
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I did and she is a producer, but I saw no picture of the house. She moved back to New Orleans to care for her mother.
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Thanks for all of the help here, all very much appreciated! I think I will contact that Marhamchurch Antiques and see what he might have to say about this piece.
I asked if it was a rope bed and she said no. I also managed to get a few more pics from here. Here they are:
(http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg283/SuedeSkinTools/Miscellaneous/IMGP0013.jpg)
(http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg283/SuedeSkinTools/Miscellaneous/IMGP0007.jpg)
(http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg283/SuedeSkinTools/Miscellaneous/IMGP0006.jpg)
(http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg283/SuedeSkinTools/Miscellaneous/IMGP0017.jpg)
(http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg283/SuedeSkinTools/Miscellaneous/IMGP0009.jpg)
(http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg283/SuedeSkinTools/Miscellaneous/IMGP0020.jpg)
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What does support the matress ?? From what can see of the nails and construction,, would help to see the construction under the mattress,,, It was made much later than what you were told !! You really have to compare the tecnique used to build the bed to what was common at the time !!
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You really have to compare the tecnique used to build the bed to what was common at the time !!
Good point... which is exactly what I had asked her about when she mentioned the fasteners and screws...
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Do you think it is Flemish like I saw? I read about 1646.
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Inquiring minds want to know! :)
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Hmmmmm, well, now that we see close up of carving, it does not look like 17th century to me, the background is to smooth to be done by hand, ditto the carving itself. More likely this bed is a copy from the 19th century or later.
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That was my opinion as well Jacon4 !! Perhaps nice copy of older style !!
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Hmmmmm, well, now that we see close up of carving, it does not look like 17th century to me, the background is to smooth to be done by hand, ditto the carving itself. More likely this bed is a copy from the 19th century or later.
Indeed. Everything says late Victorian repro of an Elizabethan bed.
Still worth a few bob though
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Now that we're seeing things more closely, there seems to be some aesthetic influence in the carving, and there is quartersawn oak in the canopy. I'm guessing 1880-1900.
Still, it's a beauty with lots of attention to detail. A nice job and still possibly worth 10k or so.
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http://mbryner.fatcow.com/jimwuerstlin/gallery/view_photo.php?set_albumName=album44&id=E9_P7084807
This bed is 1646. Flemish $30,000.00
With all due respect I disagree with greenacres. I am an antique dealer. Hubby and I have furnished our home in all 17thc. antiques. I believe this bed is English, not Flemish, and I think the price of $30,000. is very inflated and unrealistic. We have a 17thc. DATED (1686) English tester bed and didn't pay even remotely close to that. Also, ours is a more desirable bed because it is of a smaller SCALE with more understated carving. Where this bed is more fitting for a huge estate, it would be hard to sell to most collectors furnishing their homes.
I have sold to Ralph Lauren in the past. (NOT this bed!)
Even if it was owned by him, that would not inflate the value of the bed. A collector isn't going to pay an exorbitant price just because he MAY have owned it.
www dot thecountryladyantiq ues dot com
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Hi 18thc.lady
Welcome to the forum and I'm glad you resurrected this post as I hadn't seen it. It's good to have someone else with expertise on board and I look forward to having my horizons widened.
I think Greenacres was possibly referring to the bed in her link, and not the bed posted by Number13.
What are your views on the age of it? There seems to be some question as to whether it's as old as it purports to be.
I agree with your comments that just being owned by ralh Lauren probably would not add any $$$ (unless you have a real poser who loves to name drop), but if ownership can be established then it all helps towards its provenance.
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This is a "vintage" post !! Pretty much our conclusion as well !! Best I can remember anyway !!