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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: guywire on May 20, 2013, 09:37:26 PM
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This table has been described to me as an American colonial solid cherry mahogany table but by others as only being maybe 100 years old. It's the heaviest and most solid table I've ever seen, except for ones made out of a whole tree trunk, which is kind of looks like in the center actually.
Revised - looks to be late american classical or empire with solid mahogany or mahogany and cherry components
Obviously it needs a complete refinish but other than that, which is the more likely history? From looking at other tables with the above description it looks nothing like that style. It's rather short and not very practical for use, although my family used it as a dinner table for years.
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2809/8760739089_7ebc0ee3f7_b_d.jpg)http://flickr.com/gp/gamp/z5K07A (http://flickr.com/gp/gamp/z5K07A)
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8253/8761867670_a71146bdd4_z_d.jpg)http://flickr.com/gp/gamp/G1E951 (http://flickr.com/gp/gamp/G1E951)
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2853/8761868930_4f95d76b81_z_d.jpg)http://flickr.com/gp/gamp/bBpG4d (http://flickr.com/gp/gamp/bBpG4d)
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5343/8761870224_7c32c13b44_z_d.jpg)http://flickr.com/gp/gamp/8qJw70 (http://flickr.com/gp/gamp/8qJw70)
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5324/8761871010_64a1774c17_c_d.jpg)http://flickr.com/gp/gamp/ne3GQ9 (http://flickr.com/gp/gamp/ne3GQ9)
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First of all, it might be a solid cherry top, ..... but not a solid cherry mahogany top.
And secondly, if it is a solid wood top then it is most probably more than 100 years old ...... and I'm guessing mid 19th century or earlier ..... because of the "single" board top and drop leaves.
Big boards like those had to be sawed out of "virgin" timber.
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looks like its had a hard life....Oh! what an end i could give it....and it would be less harmful to the environment ;D ;D
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Is the pedestal and the top a marriage or is it all original ? Looks a bit...cumbersome to me.
http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/14025556_an-american-late-classical-mahogany-work-table
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That pedestal does look exactly like it. But this table has been in the same configuration since my mom aquired it 30 years ago, and I don't see any signs that it was from a different piece. I suppose it is possible.
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At this rate,I,ll have none of these left..... ;D..well done you,
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And I found this one - http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/15740945_american-late-classical-mahogany-game-table (http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/15740945_american-late-classical-mahogany-game-table)
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Looks to be American Empire. Probably around 1830. That pedastal base shape is reminiscent of Joseph Meeks, which would make it a New York product. Empire is, or used to be, very popular down here in the South. It would be mahogany, not cherry.
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Empire? Or Empire Revival? The simplicity of the base makes me think that it's the latter, ca late 19th - early 20th century.
It's definitely mahogany.
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And I found this one - http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/15740945_american-late-classical-mahogany-game-table (http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/15740945_american-late-classical-mahogany-game-table)
A well, there goes the last of my stock...
Mahogany....good slow burning wood.... ;D..Oops....2 for the price of one...... ;D
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This one looks to be almost exactly it. http://pinterest.com/pin/461689399269294777/ (http://pinterest.com/pin/461689399269294777/)
Thanks everyone!
Although now I'm hearing it could be revival and much newer? It was in New York in the 80s, which seems to make sense.
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Here is a photo of a very similar base on a table known to be Empire. Also, the base is pictured in the Joseph Meeks' advertising brochure from the 1830s. Looks to me to be older than revival.
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It looks like the empire tables more often have frennels on the corners as opposed to the late classical ones that don't?
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I actually think that the terms "Empire" and "Late Classical", at least as they relate to American furniture, are somewhat interchangeable. They are describing a style of furniture made during the period of time from roughly 1825 to the 1840s.
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Your table originally had casters which would raise it another 2 inches or so !! That's why it seems short !! Agree with Cogar and dr612 although not sure on wood type !! During the revival period not much figured mahogany was used except in higher end furniture !! Most you find is the less expensive straight grain and much was veneered !! So this, I think, predates the revival period also construction is different !! I would say early to mid 19th century !! Replace those casters and I think you will be more comfortable using it !!
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Here is a photo of a very similar base on a table known to be Empire. Also, the base is pictured in the Joseph Meeks' advertising brochure from the 1830s. Looks to me to be older than revival.
Yes.
The thing is that it's had a hard life and so may have been restored at some point. Also needs a polish / wax and then maybe it resembles a William IV ( 1830 ish ) table instead of an early 20th century " copy "
The pedestal looks identical to those being classed as 1830's, though in the UK the pedestals from the late 18th and early 19th are generally finer, more ornate.
Must admit it's not my cup of tea.
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This style is not a good seller !! Most do not like the overall heavy look !! If this table were in good original condition,,here it might bring $100. on a good day and with a tailwind !!
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It has all of the characteristics of a mid 19th century 1830s - 40s Empire table. Mart is right regarding the figural mahogany. If it could be attributed to Meeks and Hall it would push the price up. An period furniture expert could tell its pedigree if any.
It has never been a popular style since I have been around. It was reproduced widely in the 20s and those pieces are always veneered and perfect for Bigwull's inferno.
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Late classical or pillar & scroll, often referred to mistakenly as late empire. Second half 19th century, machine made, very reasonably priced at auction
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Late classical or pillar & scroll, often referred to mistakenly as late empire. Second half 19th century, machine made, very reasonably priced at auction
There you go!
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Looks like scribe marks on those finger joints, which would indicate an earlier manufacture and not machine made. Need a closer picture. They are reasonably priced, particularly in this condition.
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Late classical or pillar & scroll, often referred to mistakenly as late empire. Second half 19th century, machine made, very reasonably priced at auction
How are you doing Jacon4 ?? Showing us up again,, are ya` ?? ;D
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Hey Mart, good here, i stop by from time to time and check to see if there is any old furniture on the board
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Has not been much lately !! Good to see you stopping in !! Hope you are enjoying that blanket chest !!
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Yeah, i am loving that blanket chest, it's much more impressive in person than in the pic plus it's sent me on a "squiggle" quest. I have a feeling we will never know why americans did that in paint decoration.
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Yeah, i am loving that blanket chest, it's much more impressive in person than in the pic plus it's sent me on a "squiggle" quest. I have a feeling we will never know why americans did that in paint decoration.
maybe it was their children..that did the squiggles...,then later in the future, people like you could, go on a.... "pointless quest"....
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I would add that american late classical is most often large chunks of band sawed pine which is then veneered with mahogany. This style of furniture was one of the first to be marketed as "ready made furniture" (machine made) and was popular in america for over half a century, 1850-1900.
The reason it is mistaken for american Empire is, it has the same curving lines as empire but none of the elaborate carving and thus, much less expensive to make.
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Ikea of its day....
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bigwul, the word for today is SQUIGGLES! lol.
Squiggles is one of the reasons i admire early American furniture, there is a mysterious quality to it that english furniture for example, lacks. There is a certain "sameness" to english furniture because of the powerful guild (union) system in england that strictly regulated the construction and design of furniture.
In America, we had none of that, we were free to do as we pleased in construction as well as design which led to some magnificent adaptations in furniture construction & design. To sum up,
WE RULE! limeys DROOL! in early furniture.
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What does 16th century American furniture look like ?
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I would add that american late classical is most often large chunks of band sawed pine which is then veneered with mahogany. This style of furniture was one of the first to be marketed as "ready made furniture" (machine made) and was popular in america for over half a century, 1850-1900.
The reason it is mistaken for american Empire is, it has the same curving lines as empire but none of the elaborate carving and thus, much less expensive to make.
Once again.....there you go!
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What does 16th century American furniture look like ?
Not much, since America wasn't "settled" until 1620.
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Actually, 1609 in Jamestown Virginia however, just because europe did it longer doesn't mean they did it better, BAM!
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What does 16th century American furniture look like ?
Not much, since America wasn't "settled" until 1620.
That's my point ;D
Yanks...
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Actually, 1609 in Jamestown Virginia however, just because europe did it longer doesn't mean they did it better, BAM!
And that's MY point. Brits.......
The 19th century proves that Americans did it better, and all the better for only a few centuries of precedent.
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Yanks RULE! Let's just tell it like it is, not how you want it to be. lol
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There is a really good book out that offers a look into 19th century wood working in England, the "Joiner & Cabinet Maker"
"The Joiner and Cabinet Maker," this short book was written by an anonymous tradesman and tells the fictional tale of Thomas, a lad of 13 or 14 who is apprenticed to a rural shop that builds everything from built-ins to more elaborate veneered casework. The book was written to guide young people who might be considering a life in the joinery or cabinetmaking trades, and every page is filled with surprises."
http://www.lostartpress.com/product_p/bk-jacm01.htm
One of the surprising things that this book reveals is, in England, the guild system was so powerful they continued building furniture by hand until the 1930s! If correct, thats incredible considering we had been building furniture by machine since the 1850s, almost a century earlier.
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That IS correct, and it wasn't just in England. Whether that's a good or bad thing is a matter of opinion.
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Where can I find the newspaper clippings of advertisements to Meeks type furniture? I'm finding references to them but not any images. Are they in a particular book? I'm surprised they aren't available on the internet considering they'd clearly be public domain, or maybe I'm just not looking in the right places.
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It is indeed correct,, many pieces of English furniture of that time show hand cut joinery !!
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I believe that the first published reference for Meeks was actually for a coffin. There is also a record for a broadside they published that mentioned all kinds of furniture, but I'm not sure that it included pictures.
The fact is, whether your table is Empire or Empire Revival, a positive attribution is extremely difficult without a label of some sort. You could say "attributed to" but your table type is common enough that coming up with a definite "Meeks trait" is very unlikely in a sea of other manufacturers.
The problem is compounded by the fact that there are no monographs on Meeks and that much of the firm's work has until recently been confused with that of John Henry Belter, with whom J and J Meeks were contemporary.
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As generic as these things are,, even an attribution would be difficult !! I would just say "in the style of" and leave it at that !! No huge money involved anyway !!
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Yanks RULE! Let's just tell it like it is, not how you want it to be. lol
methinks you a treading on dangerous ground,with a statement like that.... ::) ::)
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When I look at this piece of Meeks & Son it appears that the top is all wrong for the style. almost as if it were a marriage. Or as jacon4 said a later example. Even in a later example you would think they would stick with the basic lines.
http://www.americanclassical.net/janda/products/products_details.php?productid=331&ptitle=Classical%20Meeks%20Labeled%20table%20SOLD
(http://www.americanclassical.net/janda/products/products_details.php?productid=331&ptitle=Classical%20Meeks%20Labeled%20table%20SOLD)
This one was sold. Please note there is no elaborate carving and it is from the 1835 period though
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Yanks RULE! Let's just tell it like it is, not how you want it to be. lol
methinks you a treading on dangerous ground,with a statement like that.... ::) ::)
Well spoken, and from a great candidate to be our 51st state, scenic Scotland!!! ;D ;D ;D
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When I look at this piece of Meeks & Son it appears that the top is all wrong for the style. lmot as if it were a marriage of as jacon4 said a later example. Even in a later example you would think they would stick with the basic lines.
http://www.americanclassical.net/janda/products/products_details.php?productid=331&ptitle=Classical%20Meeks%20Labeled%20table%20SOLD
(http://www.americanclassical.net/janda/products/products_details.php?productid=331&ptitle=Classical%20Meeks%20Labeled%20table%20SOLD)
This one was sold. Please note there is no elaborate carving and it is from the 1835 period though
Yeah, I'd give up on the whole Meeks attribution idea at this point.
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This one was sold. Please note there is no elaborate carving and it is from the 1835 period though
Would be far more well made in England during this period...
Great big ugly feet on the thing - what's that about ?
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Yanks RULE! Let's just tell it like it is, not how you want it to be. lol
methinks you a treading on dangerous ground,with a statement like that.... ::) ::)
Well spoken, and from a great candidate to be our 51st state, scenic Scotland!!! ;D ;D ;D
You wish....and if yer last invasion of the UK mainland is anything to go by....then we,ve nae fear.....think..fou nder of the American Navy.... ;D
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Yanks RULE! Let's just tell it like it is, not how you want it to be. lol
methinks you a treading on dangerous ground,with a statement like that.... ::) ::)
Well spoken, and from a great candidate to be our 51st state, scenic Scotland!!! ;D ;D ;D
You wish....and if yer last invasion of the UK mainland is anything to go by....then we,ve nae fear.....think..fou nder of the American Navy.... ;D
That was then......I think the story might be a bit different now. ;D ;D ;D ;)
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We beat the s**t out of you last time,...and this time will be no different.... ;D
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Nonsense. The die is already cast, the outcome guaranteed. Nothing like a colony....errrr "state" .....with a brogue. Our tourists will flock there! "Look honey, that guy wearing the skirt still thinks he's independent! How cute" ;D ;D ;
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"...They flock here as it is....and you,d be amazed at how many still think..they can "shoot Haggis"...and play Gowf... ;D
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The haggis I've tried deserved to be shot..... :D
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The haggis I've tried deserved to be shot..... :D
It must hae been made beh,somebody,wa didnae ken wit they wir dae,in,...a good Haggis is best served wi neeps an mashed tatties,wi a cuple o, oatcakes,an washed doon wi a guid Malt whisky,
http://www.zazzle.co.uk/haggis_recipe_postcards-239702878234042495...
jist click on the pic to enlarge,If ye want eh could send ya a tinned ane..an some oatcakes,.an i might even throw in a minature o,Malt, you,d jist have tae supply yer ane neeps an tatties,