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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: dshoup1 on May 26, 2013, 09:01:15 AM

Title: help identifying? ? tea set , crystal box , tankard?
Post by: dshoup1 on May 26, 2013, 09:01:15 AM
I was told the tea set was over 300 years old

The silver and crystal box no markings

And the tankard is stamped with jd on the bottom

All items came from belgium
Title: Re: help identifying? ? tea set , crystal box , tankard?
Post by: gg27 on May 26, 2013, 11:00:58 AM
Sorry but the teaset isn't 300 years old.  It looks 20th century especially with that style of gilding & the quality just isn't there for 300+ years old.  The shape of the cup suggests a coffee "can" as opposed to a tea cup.  If we had a pic of the pot that would help.

The box may be a sardine dish, but I can't really tell much from the picture.  I've not seen sardine dishes with handles before, so I'm only making a suggestion. 
Title: Re: help identifying? ? tea set , crystal box , tankard?
Post by: mart on May 26, 2013, 11:16:12 AM
I agree with gg27 !! That is a pretty modern coffee cup style and there is little evidence of age that I can see !! Modern style and pattern !!   Did you buy this set from a shop ??  Can`t see the others well !!
Title: Re: help identifying? ? tea set , crystal box , tankard?
Post by: dshoup1 on May 26, 2013, 12:20:39 PM
Everything came from my grandmother that lived in belgium it was all passed down it was all stuff that she held on to and had put away
I will take more pics
Title: Re: help identifying? ? tea set , crystal box , tankard?
Post by: dshoup1 on May 26, 2013, 07:38:39 PM
Here is a pic of whole set
It was handed down to my grandmother in belgium
Title: Re: help identifying? ? tea set , crystal box , tankard?
Post by: mart on May 26, 2013, 08:08:27 PM
That's a coffee set not tea !!  And I am pretty sure its 20th century !! Will look more tomorrow !!
Title: Re: help identifying? ? tea set , crystal box , tankard?
Post by: gg27 on May 27, 2013, 12:43:44 AM
Agree with Mart, that is a coffee set & I still say it's 20th century.  Could be 30's - 40's.  Family lore has a way of changing dates of items. GG
Title: Re: help identifying? ? tea set , crystal box , tankard?
Post by: bigwull on May 27, 2013, 04:15:33 AM
Have to agree with both Mart & GG..this looks more 50,s/60,s...and the cups look like expresso,size, and as GG says,peoples recollections...ten d to add years to some things....as people get older..their memory...ages faster...and what they perceive as being...hundreds of years old...will more than likely be a fraction of that....i have some items here that i got from my gran...who when i was young...told me she got them from her mum...when the truth was they,d been bought in the 50,s
Title: Re: help identifying? ? tea set , crystal box , tankard?
Post by: dshoup1 on May 27, 2013, 05:36:07 AM
More pics of sardine box?
Title: Re: help identifying? ? tea set , crystal box , tankard?
Post by: dshoup1 on May 27, 2013, 05:41:58 AM
The stamp on bottom of tankard says jd
The bottom is hand rolled not welded or solderd
Title: Re: help identifying? ? tea set , crystal box , tankard?
Post by: bigwull on May 27, 2013, 06:06:11 AM
when you ping the glass,with your nail... does it have a high pitched ring....as it looks more like moulded glass
Title: Re: help identifying? ? tea set , crystal box , tankard?
Post by: dshoup1 on May 27, 2013, 06:38:50 AM
The box I had appraised once
The finding was pure crystal and silver.
I was told about 20 years ago that the box belongs in a museum
The apraiser could not place a value to it .
Title: Re: help identifying? ? tea set , crystal box , tankard?
Post by: dshoup1 on May 27, 2013, 07:49:54 AM
I live york pa is there any well known appraisers local to my area ?
Title: Re: help identifying? ? tea set , crystal box , tankard?
Post by: gg27 on May 27, 2013, 11:29:02 AM
Just thinking about this box some more.  The handle on it makes me question whether it's a sardine box or not.  I've had a couple of square porcelain "comb honey dishes" which had lids & a similar look to this.  Could be?  GG
Title: Re: help identifying? ? tea set , crystal box , tankard?
Post by: dshoup1 on May 27, 2013, 11:55:50 AM
Thank you
Title: Re: help identifying? ? tea set , crystal box , tankard?
Post by: mart on May 27, 2013, 02:41:43 PM
http://www.porcelainmarksandmore.com/bavaria/marktleuthen_1/00.php
On the coffee set can you post a different pic of the mark ?? Maybe the one on the bottom of the pot itself ?? If you look down on this page you will see the Winterling mark !! I am not sure that your set is not a knock off of this mark !!  This was pretty common.  Need to see a few other marks from your set !! Even if real its from 1903 to 1945 and this company was in business way after that so still could be later !!
Title: Re: help identifying? ? tea set , crystal box , tankard?
Post by: dshoup1 on May 27, 2013, 05:28:57 PM
We can trace it back in the family to 1922
Title: Re: help identifying? ? tea set , crystal box , tankard?
Post by: mart on May 27, 2013, 06:06:22 PM
1922 is within right area,, but that is a long way from 300 years !!  Will keep on looking !!
Title: Re: help identifying? ? tea set , crystal box , tankard?
Post by: mart on May 27, 2013, 06:43:35 PM
http://www.porcelainmarksandmore.com/bavaria/schwarzenbach_1/00.php

Found it !!  Image 2-31 and 2-32 !! Yours is the gray green mark !! Used after 1950 !!    So can`t be from 1922 !! Many families fail to remember dates and years !!  Especially if the items belong to parents or grandparents !! It just gets lost in the memory !!
Title: Re: help identifying? ? tea set , crystal box , tankard?
Post by: gg27 on May 28, 2013, 12:22:49 AM
Thank you for confirming my suspicions regarding the date of the coffee set.  I figured it was mid century.  GG
Title: Re: help identifying? ? tea set , crystal box , tankard?
Post by: dshoup1 on May 28, 2013, 02:02:59 AM
Lots of help
Title: Re: help identifying? ? tea set , crystal box , tankard?
Post by: bigwull on May 28, 2013, 05:21:36 AM
just what i said earlier....
Title: Re: help identifying? ? tea set , crystal box , tankard?
Post by: mart on May 28, 2013, 07:17:43 AM
Thank you for confirming my suspicions regarding the date of the coffee set.  I figured it was mid century.  GG

I was pretty sure too but would rather know for sure !!  Almost everything follows a style pattern and this was a typical mid century style !!  You can follow the evolution with reasonable certainty !!   Now the other two pieces !!
Title: Re: help identifying? ? tea set , crystal box , tankard?
Post by: Ipcress on May 28, 2013, 08:44:22 AM
http://www.porcelainmarksandmore.com/bavaria/schwarzenbach_1/00.php

Found it !!  Image 2-31 and 2-32 !! Yours is the gray green mark !! Used after 1950 !!    So can`t be from 1922 !! Many families fail to remember dates and years !!  Especially if the items belong to parents or grandparents !! It just gets lost in the memory !!

I'd have said it was later than 1950, too.
Title: Re: help identifying? ? tea set , crystal box , tankard?
Post by: dshoup1 on May 28, 2013, 05:38:10 PM
31 and 32 don't have the crown above
What's the crown represent?
Title: Re: help identifying? ? tea set , crystal box , tankard?
Post by: mart on May 28, 2013, 07:45:48 PM
Crown and cross is just the mark for Bavaria !! 
Title: Re: help identifying? ? tea set , crystal box , tankard?
Post by: KC on May 28, 2013, 08:11:08 PM
gg27,  You are the only other one who has known the honey comb box!!!!   That is what I was wondering.

A delicacy to serve in Victorian to early 1900's.

Can you post a better close up of any marks on the silver?  Look closely please.
Title: Re: help identifying? ? tea set , crystal box , tankard?
Post by: gg27 on May 29, 2013, 01:00:06 AM
gg27,  You are the only other one who has known the honey comb box!!!!   That is what I was wondering.

I've always been known for having knowledge of bizarre, useless items!  :o ;D   You're the only other person that has known this item as well.
Title: Re: help identifying? ? tea set , crystal box , tankard?
Post by: wendy177 on May 29, 2013, 08:08:34 AM
Beautiful crystal box I would say french made and agree it looks to be  late 1800s to early 1900s  Could very well be a honey comb dish / box! What is the size they were usually 5" to 51/2" square.  
Title: Re: help identifying? ? tea set , crystal box , tankard?
Post by: dshoup1 on May 29, 2013, 04:12:20 PM
The crystal box is 6" 1/2L × 4" 5/8w
3" 1/2 deep
Can not find any markings .
Title: Re: help identifying? ? tea set , crystal box , tankard?
Post by: mart on May 29, 2013, 06:10:29 PM
Those are not a common item !!  This is the first time I have seen one and few are mentioned anywhere !!
Title: Re: help identifying? ? tea set , crystal box , tankard?
Post by: KC on May 30, 2013, 01:32:58 PM
I'm one of "those people" that likes finding out about (and collecting) odd and lesser known serving items.  That is why I am betting the honeycomb....BUT it could be a sardine server!!!
HOWEVER....I am betting on the sweeter answer!!!

I used to teach cooking classes and would bring them in for people to see...especially when talking about teas, etc.
Title: Re: help identifying? ? tea set , crystal box , tankard?
Post by: dshoup1 on May 30, 2013, 05:46:54 PM
@ KC  what do you know about the tankard
It is real heavy metal the bottom has a round plate in it and the sides of the cup are hand forged/rolled under to create the seal for the bottom.
J.C is stamped on the bottom
And the rim of the cup is a series of small stamps that I can't read  I'm afraid to clean the cup
Title: Re: help identifying? ? tea set , crystal box , tankard?
Post by: dshoup1 on May 30, 2013, 05:50:42 PM
I googled and Googled jc I can't find a clue:(
Title: Re: help identifying? ? tea set , crystal box , tankard?
Post by: mart on May 30, 2013, 05:54:20 PM
You need to take a good pic of the bottom and other marks !!
Title: Re: help identifying? ? tea set , crystal box , tankard?
Post by: KC on May 30, 2013, 06:21:10 PM
Please post pics of the tankard top view, bottom view, etc.

Need closeups of any markings, etc.

That will help all with trying to solve the mystery!

Title: Re: help identifying? ? tea set , crystal box , tankard?
Post by: dshoup1 on May 30, 2013, 06:59:54 PM
The initials on the bottom read J.D
Title: Re: help identifying? ? tea set , crystal box , tankard?
Post by: KC on May 31, 2013, 10:03:20 AM
I'm wondering/leaning towards it being pewter!!!!  You might want to try this site "The Pewter Society".  They help identify marks for free. Note: "If you only have a couple of pieces, the Society is willing to identify the marks for you if we can.  This service is free, but it is not available to dealers nor to individuals if the sole purpose of the identification is to facilitate the sale of the item."
http://www.pewtersociety.org/identify/pewterers-marks/ (http://www.pewtersociety.org/identify/pewterers-marks/)

However, Mart referred in another post to this site - it is a good one also...
http://www.antique-metalware.co.uk/ (http://www.antique-metalware.co.uk/)

Best of luck!!!
Title: Re: help identifying? ? tea set , crystal box , tankard?
Post by: Ipcress on May 31, 2013, 11:18:19 AM
I think the glass box is just a biscuit box. A less expensive version of this

http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/17328692_a-french-silver-and-glass-biscuit-box-makers-mark-poo (http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/17328692_a-french-silver-and-glass-biscuit-box-makers-mark-poo)
Title: Re: help identifying? ? tea set , crystal box , tankard?
Post by: bigwull on May 31, 2013, 12:31:20 PM
looks like another notch for  the Ip man........Biscuits ....sure as hell...beats Sardines...and runny honey.. ;D..
Title: Re: help identifying? ? tea set , crystal box , tankard?
Post by: dshoup1 on May 31, 2013, 01:52:27 PM
Good call
Title: Re: help identifying? ? tea set , crystal box , tankard?
Post by: Ipcress on May 31, 2013, 02:27:24 PM
Good call

That sold for £290 by the way


You're sure the white metal is unmarked ? Any chance of a good picture of it ?
Title: Re: help identifying? ? tea set , crystal box , tankard?
Post by: gg27 on June 01, 2013, 12:26:45 AM
I've never had  a square biscuit box come into the shop, always biscuit barrels.  Interesting..... thanks for solving the puzzle!   GG
Title: Re: help identifying? ? tea set , crystal box , tankard?
Post by: Ipcress on June 01, 2013, 03:22:02 AM
Thing is, the auction house has described it's use as for biscuits but it looks multifunctional to me.

Today i doubt anyone would store biscuits in a sealed glass container but posers who don't like wood or plastic might !
Title: Re: help identifying? ? tea set , crystal box , tankard?
Post by: dshoup1 on June 01, 2013, 03:48:25 AM
I would like to thank all the great people on this site for all there time spent on these subjects
Title: Re: help identifying? ? tea set , crystal box , tankard?
Post by: bigwull on June 01, 2013, 04:12:04 AM
Thing is, the auction house has described it's use as for biscuits but it looks multifunctional to me.

Today i doubt anyone would store biscuits in a sealed glass container but posers who don't like wood or plastic might !
If the  container is,nt sealed then the biscuits  go soggy....
Title: Re: help identifying? ? tea set , crystal box , tankard?
Post by: Ipcress on June 01, 2013, 04:51:15 AM
And if you seal them in glass and it's warm or daylight..They'd be kept in a pantry and put in the glass box for when guests arrived.

We're talking about the 19th century anyway. Cookies / biscuits / confectionary wouldn't last long and displaying them more important than having them hidden in a wooden container.
Title: Re: help identifying? ? tea set , crystal box , tankard?
Post by: dshoup1 on June 01, 2013, 10:27:22 AM
This is what I got back on the tankard.....This is a French tavern mug with typically square shaped handle which appears to have been made by Dresco in Paris, a firm that was founded in 1850 by two brothers, L. and P. Dresco, who individually were still in production into the early twentieth century.   I have not been able to read the left hand initial but the shape of the border and the rough image of the central part and the brother's prolific output points pretty clearly to either of them jointly or separately.   The marks round the rim are Excise marks struck when the authorities verified the contents regularly each year for accuracy of content.   These are date letters used in the Napoleonic system originated in France in 1802 but if this mug was used after manufacture in Belgium , that country also turned metric in 1801 through an act issued in Paris, reinforced in 1814 and finally in 1855 during independence.  The only two letters I could make out were for 1899 and 1901 but the mug could well have been made some considerable time earlier, which would be born out by identifying some earlier marks struck further back round the rim
Title: Re: help identifying? ? tea set , crystal box , tankard?
Post by: bigwull on June 01, 2013, 12:29:23 PM
And if you seal them in glass and it's warm or daylight..They'd be kept in a pantry and put in the glass box for when guests arrived.

We're talking about the 19th century anyway. Cookies / biscuits / confectionary wouldn't last long and displaying them more important than having them hidden in a wooden container.
Yeah..well, maybe in your house....
Title: Re: help identifying? ? tea set , crystal box , tankard?
Post by: KC on June 01, 2013, 07:43:56 PM
Don't think it's a biscuit box!!!  They were barrels, rounded or oval!

But, if you want to put your biscuits in there...you are more than welcome to!  :)
Title: Re: help identifying? ? tea set , crystal box , tankard?
Post by: Ipcress on June 02, 2013, 02:55:47 AM
Things are not always in the same shape.

http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/2047842 (http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/2047842)

http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/7180833 (http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/7180833)

http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/11641708_two-antique-biscuit-boxes (http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/11641708_two-antique-biscuit-boxes)

http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/4314008 (http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/4314008)

but as i said, it is multifunctional
Title: Re: help identifying? ? tea set , crystal box , tankard?
Post by: mart on June 02, 2013, 05:57:41 AM
Sure wouldn`t hold many of them !!~
Title: Re: help identifying? ? tea set , crystal box , tankard?
Post by: dshoup1 on June 02, 2013, 06:30:37 AM
That was my first thought
Not many biscuits in there?
Title: Re: help identifying? ? tea set , crystal box , tankard?
Post by: dshoup1 on June 02, 2013, 06:38:24 AM
What's karma? Beside all the names?
Title: Re: help identifying? ? tea set , crystal box , tankard?
Post by: Ipcress on June 02, 2013, 06:40:53 AM
You're thinking of modern biscuits, and still just biscuits. And possibly the American version of biscuits.


Title: Re: help identifying? ? tea set , crystal box , tankard?
Post by: bigwull on June 02, 2013, 07:33:22 AM
What's karma? Beside all the names?
good job...bad job....
Title: Re: help identifying? ? tea set , crystal box , tankard?
Post by: bigwull on June 02, 2013, 07:36:15 AM
well, in that case...why don,t we just call it a high felluting...butter dish,cheese dish,....or whatever takes yer fancy dish.....
Title: Re: help identifying? ? tea set , crystal box , tankard?
Post by: mart on June 02, 2013, 12:36:32 PM
Is this dish particularly heavy ??  As in thick glass ??
Title: Re: help identifying? ? tea set , crystal box , tankard?
Post by: bigwull on June 02, 2013, 12:57:01 PM
if you look at the pic the glass looks about 3/8ths thick...thats why i initially thought it was moulded..as its a heavy looking lump...
Title: Re: help identifying? ? tea set , crystal box , tankard?
Post by: dshoup1 on June 02, 2013, 02:02:20 PM
I was told Many times crystal and silver
 don't see any mold lines
Title: Re: help identifying? ? tea set , crystal box , tankard?
Post by: dshoup1 on June 02, 2013, 02:11:13 PM
Yes the dish has a lot of weight to it