Antique-shop.com

Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: Fw86 on June 07, 2013, 01:04:33 PM

Title: Unidentified Japanese china
Post by: Fw86 on June 07, 2013, 01:04:33 PM
Hi all, new member and first post, so apologies for my ignorance. I know antique cars, but Japanese china is a little outside my usual remit.
I acquired them from my grandparents after they passed 😔 and nobody in the family really knew much about them, except that they are Japanese. My great grandfather was a missionary in Japan in the early 20th century but came back to the UK shortly after my grandfather was born. I have no idea what they are meant to be used for, but I really like them anyway. I've had a look on various websites (gotheborg gives lots of makers marks) at different makers, marks and styles but can't seem to find any other similar pieces or anything with similar artwork to give me an idea of the era. Any help with identifying purpose and provenance would be brilliant, and if they are worth enough to be kept somewhere safer than on the mantelpiece. They seem to be in good condition, no chips, just a little dirty. They are quite different in shape but are obviously a pair.

Many thanks and look forward to your replies, fw86

Title: Re: Unidentified Japanese china
Post by: sapphire on June 07, 2013, 09:10:07 PM
I'm thinking what you have is a copied (faked) Meissen mark ........ unless these have survived from the 1700's.

Faked Meissen AR marks are at the bottom of this page....

http://meissenporcelain.com/fake-meissen-porcelain-marks/
Title: Re: Unidentified Japanese china
Post by: bigwull on June 08, 2013, 05:24:43 AM
they look like they are for holding an oyster,
Title: Re: Unidentified Japanese china
Post by: Ipcress on June 08, 2013, 05:47:27 AM
I'm thinking what you have is a copied (faked) Meissen mark ........ unless these have survived from the 1700's.

Faked Meissen AR marks are at the bottom of this page....

http://meissenporcelain.com/fake-meissen-porcelain-marks/

Faked is a strong word for some of those. Are crossed swords faked ? Used in England and Germany.

As said in the other thread, could be Meissen Red Dragon but more likely to be later and less valuable. The detail is lacking in these. Worth checking though.
Title: Re: Unidentified Japanese china
Post by: sapphire on June 08, 2013, 06:43:32 AM
You're right Ipcress.  And as I'm really not familiar with the histories and markings it was just an assumption on my part. I was just going by the dates of the use of 'AR' and the change to the crossed swords. From what I found the crossed swords began replacing the previous marks in the 1720's and used 'consistently' after 1731 then I came across this bit that states the original of the pictured Red Dragon piece were dated between 1731-34. So possibly the AR may have overlapped with the crossed swords time frame?

http://www.porcelainexhibition.co.uk/dragons.htm (No. 77)

Probably best for me to leave it to those of you who actually know and are familiar with the porcelain history, rather than my googling efforts ;)
Title: Re: Unidentified Japanese china
Post by: Ipcress on June 08, 2013, 09:26:13 AM
Likely you're right about them not being Meissen but i wouldn't class them as fakes.

Title: Re: Unidentified Japanese china
Post by: mart on June 08, 2013, 04:02:55 PM
Need to combine these two threads !!   Still think Wolfsohn !!
Title: Re: Unidentified Japanese china
Post by: Ipcress on June 08, 2013, 05:04:34 PM
Find me some Wolfsohn porcelain with similar designs and i'll agree.
Title: Re: Unidentified Japanese china
Post by: sapphire on June 08, 2013, 07:38:47 PM
Found a Meissen open salt dish/cellar which explains the shape.

http://www.artvalue.com/auctionresult--meissen-salt-from-the-mollendorff-serv-3151443.htm

ca. 1761




Title: Re: Unidentified Japanese china
Post by: mart on June 08, 2013, 08:48:34 PM
http://snyderstreasures.com/pages/meissen.htm

Ok !!  Could this have been the inspiration for Wolfsohn ??  Look on the other thread for a link to similar shape  !!  Need to combine these two !! Getting confusing !!
Title: Re: Unidentified Japanese china
Post by: mart on June 10, 2013, 07:59:15 AM
Bumping so will hopefully will be close together !!