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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: gerspee on June 11, 2013, 09:26:38 AM
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Absolutely love girl from Italy and painted by a Dutch Baroness but by the looks of it at that time living in London . So who know this Baroness as a painter and knows more about her stay in England maybe ?
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London, yet dated Rome 1900. Bizarrely signed.
I think this is a fake or an oilette
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Not a fake and real oil painting on canvas . It's been restored and put on a wooden back in the fifties.sixties with the frame . This family is a well known Dutch higher class family but some off them where living outside the Netherlands at that time . So not to much knowledge what the where up to . So reason question on forum .
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Have you links to details about the family ?
I have not once seen anyone put the town in which they live on a painting aside the place it was painted.
There appear to be only a few areas on the picture where there's evidence of brushstrokes applied - her right foot, beneath the signature etc.
And i'd expect any aristocrat who painted in such a manner that brushstrokes were not discernable, to sign with a much more stylish hand
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There's some links to this family related to one off the queens off the Netherlands as a member off the royal household .And in these days there also was the Director off the Rijksmuseum in Amsterdam from this family Riemsdyk . But in what relation this Baroness is related to this side of the Riemsdyk family is unknown . The painting is real but hard to show on a photograph for the internet . But if you feel it and see close up it's very good to notice that it's hand painted . It's just very fine painted . Have some more paintings in this house (around 50+ ) and i know what to feel en what to see to make it a hand painted painting . But the sir name and place and title baroness and Rome 1900 is for me also a strange way of signing a painting . What it looks to me is that she was a very good and skilled hobby artist who only made paintings for her own amusement and family ?
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Love the picture/subject.
I would like to ask if you can tell, by looking side view...Is it oil or clear painted over a printed canvas? That has been done quite often...with the paint strokes in the clear paint.
Have to agree with Ipcress, Very strange!
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No . Just a even more better look with a strong magnifying glass and it is totally painted overall . Just made a detail picture for you .
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Is it possible to have a similar picture of the face ?
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Here it is and freshly made .
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it is my belief that this is a canvas print...that has had acrylic paint..applied to make it look like its oil on canvas....for had this been an oil on canvas then i doubt very much, that we would see the weave of the canvas below the paint....why don,t you take it to the Rijksmuseum....in Amsterdam... i,m sure they,ll be able to tell you what this and the other 50 that you,ve got...are worth.....my own personal view on this is....around....20/30E.....i,ve got some just lilke it...and i,d swear they were oil on canvas.....but..... ..............with the technology that is available now....you can be made to believe anything....this is tourist fodder.... ;D......bought by a Dutchman....with deep pockets and short arms..... ;D;
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Well Just a very good look again outside in the sunlight and it is real painted . Also had a phone call with a Dutch paintings expert known from the Dutch antique road show who I have send the pictures . And Baroness is known as made some pictures but nothing more . So real and if I want more info me have to pay his expertise . So still need to know more about this Baroness and her past in England .
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it is my belief that this is a canvas print...that has had acrylic paint..applied to make it look like its oil on canvas.
That's what i meant when i said Oilette. Originally term used on postcards by Tuck And Sons with an embossed effect to make them resemble paintings and used in auction house catalogue descriptions. Also, sometimes referred to as a print with heightened white or body colour.
Still no lead on this Baroness. What did the A stand for in her name ? Absolutely nothing online about her so far.
And the signature / date is still worrying.
A few years ago i was helping to catalogue an auction and the paintings was split between myself and the auctioneer. Some of the prints and lesser works were placed in a more general auction. Whilst looking at these, i was taken by a painting bearing the name S Barling-Clarke. The auctioneer had catalogued it as an oilette / print on canvas. I looked at it. The canvas was old and with the original stretcher. The work was incredible smooth and hardly a brush stroke in sight. I came to the conclusion it was an original oil on canvas. Everything about it was consistent, authentic and after a little research i found that this was how Barling-Clarke painted. You need a wonderful hand to paint in this manner.
The above painting is not like this as there are areas which concern me.
This was the Barling Clarke oil on canvas and it sold for £1,700.
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Like the Ip man said....i too can find no trace of A.van Riemsdyk...all i keep getting is an Ice Hockey player....i think this is a turkey...... ;D ;D
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Could not the Baroness have been living in London, ........ but on holiday in Rome when it was painted?
Doesn't most everyone write something on the back of some of their photos to remind them of when n' where it was taken? ;D
What is the nationality of the female in the painting.
Is it Dutch, English or Italian?
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Like the Ip man said....i too can find no trace of A.van Riemsdyk...all i keep getting is an Ice Hockey player....i think this is a turkey...... ;D ;D
HA, .... I've painted 8 or 10 "oils" ..... but I don't think you will find a reference on the Internet of my artistic abilities. ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Could not the Baroness have been living in London, ........ but on holiday in Rome when it was painted?
Doesn't most everyone write something on the back of some of their photos to remind them of when n' where it was taken? ;D
What is the nationality of the female in the painting.
Is it Dutch, English or Italian?
there are times when you crack me up.....and today is one of them.....if we can,t find the "baroness".....what chance is there of finding the nationality of the girl.... ;D
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The girl looks Italian to me with these clothes and looks . There was a Dutch Baron van Riemsdyk who had 5 children and in that time that one off these children could have moved to London and called herself Baroness van Riemsdyk . Or his wife took the title because the baron himself died in 1895 and moved to England maybe or came from the UK . Still have find out more so it will come ?
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Could not the Baroness have been living in London, ........ but on holiday in Rome when it was painted?
Has anyone ever signed a work or art like that other than on a toilet wall ?
" Big Bill from Barnsley woz ere. London 1974 "
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i think what we might have here is......a....liquid eren koopman ;D ;D ;D.......and for those of you...who only speak...Texan.....i t means..Wind up merchant.....
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The girl looks Italian to me with these clothes and looks . There was a Dutch Baron van Riemsdyk who had 5 children and in that time that one off these children could have moved to London and called herself Baroness van Riemsdyk . Or his wife took the title because the baron himself died in 1895 and moved to England maybe or came from the UK . Still have find out more so it will come ?
Why the ambiguity ? If they are well known...
Right.
I've found a Baron Van Riemsdijk, the Director of the Rijks Museum Amsterdam. And there's mention of one who had five children including a Frederick who was involved with aviation in the early 20th.
Bit tenuous though
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Need to see back of painting !! You would think the Baroness,, would know how to spell it !!
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That's the ones I have found also and me think that the father off the aviation son is the most likely candidate to be connected with his family to this painting . The former first director off the Rijksmuseum had not the Baron as his title but Jonkheer . In the Dutch archives is only one Baron van Riemsdyk to be found at that time . The spelling off the name Riemsdyk is also in the newer reports on the internet done with IJ instead off Y . The original is the one on the painting done by the artist .
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Not the same spelling,.... Baron van.Riemsdyjk.... Baroness A.van .Riemsdyk.....
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time to put this topic to bed.....its becoming...double dutch....next we,ll be having a little moose wi clogs on.. ;D......
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You have spelt the name wrong with YJ in one name . What is that the original name in the archives is Riemsdyk instead off now used in the newer articles Riemsdijk . So the artist used the right spelling that was used in these years . So nothing difficult here and only some more info about this family could solve the case .
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Baroness is spelled wrong in sig. !! Also wondering why the difference in color in sig. Reimsdyk is darker than all other words !! Oil paint does not change color !! Looks almost like Reimsdyk was on painting and all other was added later !! As someone that has worked in both oil and acrylic over the years and have done a few restorations,, I can say that it is not likely to have that much variation in color of sig. line !@! While I cannot examine the painting,, it does look like a more accomplished painter than hobbyist and if it is,, there would be something found somewhere to prove she even existed !! Especially at that late date in history !!
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Not the same spelling,.... Baron van.Riemsdyjk.... Baroness A.van .Riemsdyk.....
Didn't say it was the same person, and the spelling is ambiguous in many cases You find subtle variations with surnames, especially non-English in the 19th century.
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Baroness is spelled wrong in sig. !! Also wondering why the difference in color in sig. Reimsdyk is darker than all other words !! Oil paint does not change color !!
a ) Barones is Dutch
b ) Riemsdyk is darker as it's outside the focus point of the flash and on a darker part of the painting. That's pretty consistent to me with the full name being signed at the same time.
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Your totally right about the title being Barones in Dutch (English is Baroness) and the other writing is done in the same time . The discolouring was made with taking the photo by me . + the fact the handwriting is from the same person .
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Not the same spelling,.... Baron van.Riemsdyjk.... Baroness A.van .Riemsdyk.....
Didn't say it was the same person, and the spelling is ambiguous in many cases You find subtle variations with surnames, especially non-English in the 19th century.
..I know you did,nt say they were the same person, ...give me some savvy....i do know the difference between a Baron & a Baroness....this topic has become one big Yawn....full of ifs buts,maybe,s,what ifs....
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Mmm,,, didn`t know that !! Not that familiar with Dutch spelling !! Misspelled words irritate me !! Could be the pic I guess !! Didn`t look right !! Still need to see the back !!
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Its become...a load of Double Dutch.....to me.....thats,bull shit...in Texan.... ;D
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Now that's a language I know well !! :D
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Need to see back of painting !! You would think the Baroness,, would know how to spell it !!
This ole dude agrees with you, to wit:
(https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/p480x480/301_415159025206241_1912102029_n.jpg)
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here's the back and maybe nice if we stay at the subject ? So about the painting and the artist and who she was en where she lived ?
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there are times when you crack me up.....and today is one of them.....if we can,t find the "baroness".....what chance is there of finding the nationality of the girl....
Bigwull, like Gerspee said, ….. look at her clothes.
Has anyone ever signed a work or art like that other than on a toilet wall ?
I believe so, to wit:
http://www.yarddog.com/blogs/yard-dog-art-gallery-1/6331698-jon-langfords-prints (http://www.yarddog.com/blogs/yard-dog-art-gallery-1/6331698-jon-langfords-prints)
And this one ............
The paintings in my collection were part of a lot of paintings by Bernice, some of which were fully signed "Bernice Ozmun". Several also included an early 1940s date. Ozmun sometimes signed her work verso and sometime both on front and verso. http://kevindaniel.x10.mx/illinois.html (http://kevindaniel.x10.mx/illinois.html)
And here's 2 more:
(http://www.manevolves.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Study-in-Paint-and-Varnish-Number-2-back.jpg)
(http://www.manevolves.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/RRK-Study-in-silver-backside-300x225.jpg)
Source link for above: http://www.manevolves.com/raymond-rowley-king/ (http://www.manevolves.com/raymond-rowley-king/)
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Need to see back of painting !! You would think the Baroness,, would know how to spell it !!
This ole dude agrees with you, to wit:
(https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/p480x480/301_415159025206241_1912102029_n.jpg)
Hahahahahahahaha !! ;D
Back to the Barones
It's been relined, board backed and then placed within another frame.
Still don't like it - sorry !
There's nothing about this person online so you need to have the picture looked at first hand
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there are times when you crack me up.....and today is one of them.....if we can,t find the "baroness".....what chance is there of finding the nationality of the girl....
Bigwull, like Gerspee said, ….. look at her clothes.
Has anyone ever signed a work or art like that other than on a toilet wall ?
I believe so, to wit:
No, they just have the place name and the date - very common.
This one has, allegedly, the place where the painter lived and where she painted it signed on the artwork itself - never seen that before.
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here's the back and maybe nice if we stay at the subject ? So about the painting and the artist and who she was en where she lived ?
I thought that was obvious...she/...stayed in London in 1900.....as for staying on the subject.....Na!!...its become a big yawn.......we need our little distractions.....ke eps us sane.... ;D
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here's the back and maybe nice if we stay at the subject ? So about the painting and the artist and who she was en where she lived ?
i don,t see an overlap of the canvas...furthermor e...i would have expected to see a stretchered frame....can i just say.....do not give up your day job just yet....
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He said it had been re-backed in the third post.
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fair enough.....but i still think its canvas print thats been overdone with acrylic..or maybe oil...but whatever it is...i don,t think its worth what cloggie thinks its worth....as for finding out who ,what, where....he,s got more chance with a needle/ haystack....
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I'm curious to know if this appears to have been varnished/shellac'd (surface of the canvas) , gerspee .
It's not unknown for members of 'royalty' to be rather egotistical , so perhaps this was a painting done by the (as far as I know) unlisted Baroness in Rome 1900 , hence the unusual sig on it .
Nice little item , however damaged & improperly (by todays' standards) preserved !
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As a wee answer to bigwull just some advice . As a former victim off traffic taken out off my car with a severe brain damage and some broken bones and classified as a invalid in 1994 . It has never taken away my positive thinking with buying and selling antiques or art or electronics's what's my daily time occupation now to avoid being bored and depressed . What also means that I do know what could bring a decent return on my bought items .
When it comes to this picture it's only to pin it to a certain member off this family and it's closing down to this Baron Riemsdyk and his family now . There where no other members off this family who where allowed this title . And trust me that it's a real painting and not a print on canvas like been mentioned . Even with the UV light (paint reflex's) it's okay and shows the repairs made on the canvas before it's been put to the wooden frame . There's also no pieces been cut of the painting from original and the holes off the nails are there carefully painted in with colour . So the restorer even took the trouble to keep it as made instead off cutting the nasty bits and sides off the painting .
Second fact would be a simple one because why make a copy as a canvas print from a artist that is almost unknown as a very good painting artist ? Who would even buy this copy ?
So when it will be establish t as being painted by the real Baroness who ever she was then it will be a good return if I would decide to sell ( And it's in the room now and I think I like the girl and the way she looks to me ......Must be the mid-life crisis kicking in ;D
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As a wee answer to bigwull just some advice . As a former victim off traffic taken out off my car with a severe brain damage and some broken bones and classified as a invalid in 1994 . It has never taken away my positive thinking with buying and selling antiques or art or electronics's what's my daily time occupation now to avoid being bored and depressed . What also means that I do know what could bring a decent return on my bought items .
When it comes to this picture it's only to pin it to a certain member off this family and it's closing down to this Baron Riemsdyk and his family now . There where no other members off this family who where allowed this title . And trust me that it's a real painting and not a print on canvas like been mentioned . Even with the UV light (paint reflex's) it's okay and shows the repairs made on the canvas before it's been put to the wooden frame . There's also no pieces been cut of the painting from original and the holes off the nails are there carefully painted in with colour . So the restorer even took the trouble to keep it as made instead off cutting the nasty bits and sides off the painting .
Second fact would be a simple one because why make a copy as a canvas print from a artist that is almost unknown as a very good painting artist ? Who would even buy this copy ?
So when it will be establish t as being painted by the real Baroness who ever she was then it will be a good return if I would decide to sell ( And it's in the room now and I think I like the girl and the way she looks to me ......Must be the mid-life crisis kicking in ;D
welcome to the invalid club....i,m an invalid also.....
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I say good for you , in your search to find all you can about the person named in the painting (looks like a real painting to me too) , gerspee !
Sometimes it is the person who will not take 'NO!!!' for an answer that winds up finding the "YES!!!" !
Keeping in mind that it was not uncommon for folks to 'claim' to be royalty .... you might consider researching residence/census/property/tax records of the general era , in London , to see if there is any proof of such person there , way back then ...
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Fancypants,, to me it does look like it has been literally varnished to the board to me !! Not an uncommon practice back then !! The thing is Gerspee,,, this person has no written history !! If so she would have shown up somewhere in our searches !! She doesn`t exist as signed on the painting !!
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I just thought you were mental
;)
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ipcress--you are sarcastic for no reason
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Eh ?
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ipcress--you are sarcastic for no reason
Noooooooooooooooo!!Sugercube....i,m on the same wavelength as him...i know what he means....and can totally agree with him....at times.....and this is one of them.... ;D ;D ;D
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use your words ipcress
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:'(Were's the subject now ? thought this was about a painting ...........
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That was yesterday....how much milk can you get from one cow....we,ve done our searching....and came up with a big zero....so unless there,s something that you are not telling us.....its time to move on....cos after all, i,d say getting 4 pages...out of us....is good going....some people get very little...and they are happy with what they get.....
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But I have a nice new thing to keep you amused so here the are : Adriana Jacqueline Marie Loudon, 5 Dec 1856 - 19 Oct 1919 was married to jhr. Theodorus Helenus Franciscus van Riemsdyk (1848-1923) in his second marriage . Now she was also connected to the English Royalty i have seen somewhere on the net . That would explain if she was the painter why London was spelt in the English way on the painting and the A in her name .. So more about her and her marriage to van Riemsdyk would be nice to know .
So show me your skills and give me input ?
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A woman spells Baroness in Dutch but Loudon as London ?
This is stretching it.
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I agree Ipcress !!
Well, at least this one can be found !! Why didn`t you give us this info when you posted ???
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Because this info I just found yesterday evening out off a link from the Dutch national register . And i did not say that her birth name Loudon was the London in the signing off the painting . So still the two links London and Rome must be used i presume ?
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Because this info I just found yesterday evening out off a link from the Dutch national register . And i did not say that her birth name Loudon was the London in the signing off the painting . So still the two links London and Rome must be used i presume ?
you had us chasing shadows...at the beginning...then after 4 pages you get miffed because we don,t stay on track....then when i said it was time to put this to bed....you pop up with new information....well, it may keep the others "amused"....but it does,nt wash with me....and as for your latest...."show me your skills".....and give me input......well, you,ll not be getting anymore input from me.....some of the others on here may be taken in by you....but...i see right through you......
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Bigwull ...You are capable to make a antiques forum into a wrong interpretations forum . If you need an platform to get rid off your own frustrations there are other forums on the internet to be on . So let other people just discuss antiques and art etcetera and keep to that . But don't tell people that the take the mickey out off the forum by putting in last information . Second you are putting yourself up as a forum president but I think it's not your job to tell people off if when the questions are getting to difficult for you.
Just let people go if you don't now about the subject ..... :-[
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Bigwull ...You are capable to make a antiques forum into a wrong interpretations forum . If you need an platform to get rid off your own frustrations there are other forums on the internet to be on . So let other people just discuss antiques and art etcetera and keep to that . But don't tell people that the take the mickey out off the forum by putting in last information . Second you are putting yourself up as a forum president but I think it's not your job to tell people off if when the questions are getting to difficult for you.
Just let people go if you don't now about the subject ..... :-[
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Ummmm ....