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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: nuteacher on July 21, 2013, 10:03:54 PM

Title: Windsor chair?
Post by: nuteacher on July 21, 2013, 10:03:54 PM
My wife bought this in 1999 at a yard sale off You Bet Road in the town of Red Dog, CA (I'm not making the names up; our home is a  town with gold mining history!)
 She asked me to post it on the forum for information about it - she thinks it maybe 18th century, but I'm ignorant about antiques, so I promised her I'd ask the pros. :)

Pictures are below:


Title: Re: Windsor chair?
Post by: bigwull on July 22, 2013, 02:19:08 AM
from the way its sitting in pic 1 it sure looks old...but not 250+ years old,..i,d say, maybe 1890,s +
Title: Re: Windsor chair?
Post by: Ipcress on July 22, 2013, 03:21:14 AM
Windsor birdcage chair. Could be late 18th, early 19th but it's in ropey condition.
Title: Re: Windsor chair?
Post by: Rauville on July 22, 2013, 08:03:33 AM
I can't tell if those are traces of black paint or not, which might be original? If so, the color black was generally used in the first half of the 19th century.
Title: Re: Windsor chair?
Post by: bigwull on July 22, 2013, 12:13:50 PM
could be spalted oak....which is a water based fungus...that turns black...the wood does,nt decay...as such...but, this is what you end up with...
Title: Re: Windsor chair?
Post by: cogar on July 23, 2013, 03:20:03 AM
The "wear" marks on both sides of the seat ...... implies that it was painted.
Title: Re: Windsor chair?
Post by: mart on July 23, 2013, 08:11:04 AM
I don`t think it was painted !! If it were there would be some traces left on the back and I didn`t see any !! Wear on the seat would have been in the center rather than on the sides where there is less pressure !! Staining on the seat could be caused by simple dirt & grunge !!
Can we see the back and the underside of the seat !! I would guess early 1800`s but needs a hands on look !!
Title: Re: Windsor chair?
Post by: nuteacher on July 23, 2013, 10:33:52 AM
Other views (taken yesterday) - I'll get a better back view after our nephews' children leave today- two 5 year olds  and one aged 6...we're going to be a little busy!


(http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj116/remmett/b5240dc9-fe84-44b0-b30f-23d2b5379a2f.jpg)

(http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj116/remmett/500cefb0-c7d7-405f-91d8-6060cad73bd1.jpg)
Title: Re: Windsor chair?
Post by: jacon4 on July 23, 2013, 03:28:01 PM
Yep, agrees with Ipcress, birdcage windsor. Generally speaking, windsors are painted, you can tell this by how they were made, with different woods. Guesses 3rd quarter 19th century, it has bamboo turnings which were popular then.
Title: Re: Windsor chair?
Post by: frogpatch on July 23, 2013, 05:39:31 PM
Nice chair. I agree with the general consensus. Looks like mid to late 19th c to me. I can't expand the last pics so I can't tell if the seat is one plank or several boards. The first pic looked like a single plank but the underside shot does not. On the very early examples the leg would come though the seat and would be visible from above if the paint was removed. All that said it is a handsome chair and a nice heirloom. 
Title: Re: Windsor chair?
Post by: bigwull on July 23, 2013, 06:19:13 PM
the only heirlooms that i,ve got are two pots of ashes,.in my shed....ones been there since 2003...and the other from 2006....
Title: Re: Windsor chair?
Post by: frogpatch on July 23, 2013, 06:34:41 PM
If they are relatives you might invite them inside or scatter them in the heather. The shed is not a respectful place for them i it?
Title: Re: Windsor chair?
Post by: cogar on July 23, 2013, 07:00:44 PM
Quote
Wear on the seat would have been in the center rather than on the sides where there is less pressure !!


Now Mart, it's not the sitting pressure, ....... it's the sliding on-n-off pressure that causes wear. ;) ;)
Title: Re: Windsor chair?
Post by: mart on July 23, 2013, 07:26:49 PM
LOL !!  Then must have been a bigger person than me cause I only fit in the middle !! :D

I must say that this post was a learning experience !!  In all these years I had never heard of a birdcage Windsor !!  They are pretty unknown here and generally everything other than the bow back is referred to as comb back or flat back !! (With the exception of fan back windsors) Have also heard them called flat tops !!  Just a continuing education these antiques are !!!
Title: Re: Windsor chair?
Post by: jacon4 on July 24, 2013, 02:27:56 AM
Hey, it's possible that this chair was made in the 1st half of the 19th century, impossible to tell from pic's alone. One thing for sure, this chair is worthy of some repair/restoration which would not cost much.  Linked below are mostly early types of American Windsors, many styles of these chairs are still made today.

http://www.americanwindsorchair.com/

I did the google image thing and this is what they have

https://www.google.com/search?q=antique+birdcage+windsor&safe=off&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=SpHvUfnKDIma8wT394GQAQ&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=1280&bih=899
Title: Re: Windsor chair?
Post by: cogar on July 24, 2013, 05:43:29 AM
Quote
I must say that this post was a learning experience !!  In all these years I had never heard of a birdcage Windsor !! 


Maybe, ..... here is another tid-bit of learning experience.  ??? ??? ???

When it comes to those old “spindle” chairs, there was a construction technique that not too many people are familiar with …… but was used by a few of the “old time” chairmakers for holding the cross-brace “spindles” permanently in place without the use of glue or nails.

I don’t know what the official name is so I’ll just call it a “ball-joint”.

The “spindles” were cut with a “ball” on each end and then laid aside to completely dry out.

The legs were then cut out of “green” wood (high moisture content) …… and the “spindle” holes were drilled the same diameter as the “balls” on the ends of the spindle.

The chair was then assembled and set aside for the chair legs to “dry out”. And when they did the wood would shrink and “clamp” tight around those “ball-joints”, never to come out again unless broken.   
Title: Re: Windsor chair?
Post by: frogpatch on July 24, 2013, 07:30:42 AM
I have heard of that years before. Thanks for reminding me. The worst repair to undo is the nail in the joint that came apart. I have had to take the chair legs off and pound them with a rubber mallet just to get a grip on the nail heads. Them I had to fill and hide the holes and wrap the ends of the stretchers and reglue. That construction method would have prevented all that work. Unfortunately it was not used in later chairs.
Title: Re: Windsor chair?
Post by: Rauville on July 24, 2013, 08:10:49 AM
...I must say that this post was a learning experience !!  In all these years I had never heard of a birdcage Windsor !!... 

They can even go by the name "Chicken Coop Windsor" as well.
http://www.bobdillonwindsorchairs.com/rodback.htm (http://www.bobdillonwindsorchairs.com/rodback.htm)
Title: Re: Windsor chair?
Post by: mart on July 24, 2013, 08:18:17 AM
Hey, it's possible that this chair was made in the 1st half of the 19th century, impossible to tell from pic's alone. One thing for sure, this chair is worthy of some repair/restoration which would not cost much.  Linked below are mostly early types of American Windsors, many styles of these chairs are still made today.

http://www.americanwindsorchair.com/

I did the google image thing and this is what they have

https://www.google.com/search?q=antique+birdcage+windsor&safe=off&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=SpHvUfnKDIma8wT394GQAQ&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=1280&bih=899

I would certainly keep and restore it !!  My thinking was early 1800`s but like you said,, hard to tell from pics !! 
Title: Re: Windsor chair?
Post by: cogar on July 24, 2013, 09:52:21 AM
Quote
The worst repair to undo is the nail in the joint that came apart.

Right you are, ....... and that goes for any repair ...... when a wee small Finishing nail was used. Like so:
(http://www.savvy-discounts.com/home_repair_hardware/037_finishing_nail.jpg)

But I could usually get them out with minimal damage to the wood because I had in my collection of tools a pair of electrical/electronic "lead cutting" or Lead Dykes which I could get hold-of the nail head with and then lever or leverage it out of the wood.

You can buy these at Radio Shack, Auto Parts stores, etc. .... to wit:

(http://img.mfrbee.com/photo/v2/278428637/6%22_Lead_Dykes__Spring_Loaded_Diagonal_Cutting_Pliers.jpg)

Just make sure you buy the "good ones" if you are going to be pulling nails with them.  
Title: Re: Windsor chair?
Post by: mart on July 24, 2013, 11:36:45 AM
Here we call those side cutters and are a must have tool !!  They are good to get hold of those finishing nails !! I even have one in my tackle box !!
Title: Re: Windsor chair?
Post by: cogar on July 24, 2013, 01:26:05 PM
Most everyone calls that type of pliers a “side-cutter” and they make them in all sizes up to probably 12 inches in length.

But the one I posted a picture of is 6 inches in length and they call it a Lead Dyke …. as in “leads on electrical components or leads for a horse” …. and not as in “lead sinkers or leaded glass windows”. To wit, the source page:  http://www.mfrbee.com/product/2332752/6%22_Lead_Dykes__Spring_Loaded_Diagonal_Cutting_Pliers.html (http://www.mfrbee.com/product/2332752/6%22_Lead_Dykes__Spring_Loaded_Diagonal_Cutting_Pliers.html)

 Anyway, the ones I had were only about 4 1/2 inches in length, has a really sharp cutting edge, a flat face on one side of the cutters, a really sharp point on the end of the cutters and was made of hardened steel 

Here is a hi-buck one like I’m talking about …….but they don’t call them Dykes on  that site.
http://www.practicaltool.com/item/71686/exceltacut/ (http://www.practicaltool.com/item/71686/exceltacut/)
Title: Re: Windsor chair?
Post by: Rauville on July 24, 2013, 02:46:41 PM
I've always liked a pair of good "Flat face end cutters" for pulling brads and nails.
(http://www.channellock.com/data/default/images/catalog/240/356.jpg)
Title: Re: Windsor chair?
Post by: frogpatch on July 24, 2013, 02:58:36 PM
I always used the dykes or side cutters. I had to be careful as I have nipped off the head on occasion. When I had a job working trucks many years ago they called them cotter pin removers. They were side cutters to me. I still use them for lots of things. Probably more than any other tool besides a pocket knife. They are good for getting that metal clip off off bagged ice cubes too.
Title: Re: Windsor chair?
Post by: mart on July 24, 2013, 06:58:41 PM
I've always liked a pair of good "Flat face end cutters" for pulling brads and nails.
(http://www.channellock.com/data/default/images/catalog/240/356.jpg)

That's a good one too !!  Two tools I use most are linemans pliers and side cutters !!
Title: Re: Windsor chair?
Post by: cogar on July 25, 2013, 03:16:47 AM
Bigwull doesn't have a problem with nails in furniture ...... unless he throws his wood ashes in his driveway. ;D ;D
Title: Re: Windsor chair?
Post by: mart on July 25, 2013, 06:42:11 AM
We will have to ask what he does with all those nails he cleans out of his woodburner !!