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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: mart on July 31, 2013, 07:18:21 PM

Title: Real or fake ??
Post by: mart on July 31, 2013, 07:18:21 PM
These were given to my daughter !!  Something different for you to think about !!
Title: Re: Real or fake ??
Post by: KC on July 31, 2013, 07:24:12 PM
They are real because you posted it.

Interesting arrowheads......... ...

Title: Re: Real or fake ??
Post by: greenacres on July 31, 2013, 07:52:01 PM
Neat aarowheads, mart. The small ones are so small they look like teeth! :)
Title: Re: Real or fake ??
Post by: mart on July 31, 2013, 08:19:34 PM
The bird points are 3/4 in or slightly less,, Spear is 4 1/2 inches !!
Title: Re: Real or fake ??
Post by: IlliniGuy on July 31, 2013, 08:45:22 PM
Sometimes it can be tough to authenticate items like this from a pic but I have my doubts. They show no obvious patination I would expect to see from something this old. Sorry, I think these appear to be modern made.
Title: Re: Real or fake ??
Post by: mart on July 31, 2013, 09:21:00 PM
As the old saying goes they are as phony as a three dollar bill !!  Thanks IlliniGuy !!   The small ones are just flakes that have been roughly shaped The spear point is a resin molded one !! Note the perfection !!  Each side is absolutely identical to the other,,exactly 4 1/2 inches not a hair over !! Smooth top ridges, smooth sides, perfect shape !!  That doesn`t happen with an authentic spear point !!
Title: Re: Real or fake ??
Post by: IlliniGuy on July 31, 2013, 09:33:32 PM
I thought that might be a molded piece. I enlarged to 400x and thought the little hole near the center was curious. Reproductions in Native American artifacts have been a real problem for many years. In fact the very first mail fraud case in the US involved just this. It was in the 1890's.
Title: Re: Real or fake ??
Post by: rockandrollrods on July 31, 2013, 11:50:02 PM
I grew up in the Southwest where this stuff abounds. An antiques dealer told me when I kid what the easiest way to tell if a spear head is fake. Simple really. It's a spear head.

They were exaggerating of course, but there was more truth to that than not.
Title: Re: Real or fake ??
Post by: cogar on August 01, 2013, 03:19:15 AM
Quote
Note the perfection !!  Each side is absolutely identical to the other ....

But Mart, we couldn't see the other side of the large one. ;D ;D

Some of the present day "nappers" are really good at creating such items ..... and one really has to trust the word of the owner as to the item's origin.

And I'm pretty sure that all "napped" arrowheads, knives, axes and spearpoints are like snowflakes, ......none of them are identical to any other one.
Title: Re: Real or fake ??
Post by: mart on August 01, 2013, 09:03:21 AM
I  didn`t mean front to back even though they are the same,, I meant left to right !!  There are no ridges where rock would have been chipped away,,it is smooth !! Note the smoothed area under the barb,,!! 
Title: Re: Real or fake ??
Post by: KC on August 01, 2013, 09:29:31 AM
My neighborhood has a creek running through it.  The original owners of the property were friends (before they passed and before it built up around here).  They showed the kids and I the area that had been a trading post for the early settlers and Indians.  They helped us hunt for arrowheads and showed us their amazing collection of artifacts.  So exciting.
Title: Re: Real or fake ??
Post by: mart on August 01, 2013, 11:30:23 AM
There is a huge campsite not far from here !!  Caddo Indians occupied most of this area !! Before the divorce back in the 80`s we had over 1000 perfect points and trash cans full of broken ones and blanks !! Also had scrapers, awls, war clubs, grind stones, knives and spear points and of course pottery pieces !!  Several people here dug mounds before Cypress Springs lake flooded the area !! One man I knew found a huge red clay ball and no one could figure what it was !!  So one day he got it and a water hose and started washing the mud off layer by layer !!  In the center he found an indian skull !!  Only thing they could figure out was that he died as a crazy person and they didn`t want the spirits making anyone else crazy so they covered his head in clay !!
Title: Re: Real or fake ??
Post by: IlliniGuy on August 01, 2013, 02:55:58 PM
It is really nice to see the interest here in Native American artifacts. I have hunted Central Illinois (primarily) for over thirty years and have found somewhere in the neighborhood of 10,000 artifacts. I have also been a dealer although I have been out of that for some years. My collection now consists of only personal finds other than a few pieces of pottery. I posted these pics when I first joined but here they are again. All personal finds.
Title: Re: Real or fake ??
Post by: KC on August 01, 2013, 04:02:05 PM
Nice!!!!!
Title: Re: Real or fake ??
Post by: mart on August 01, 2013, 05:15:53 PM
Now look at the difference in his and the ones I posted and you can tell that mine are obvious fakes !!  Very nice points !!
Title: Re: Real or fake ??
Post by: KevinM on August 01, 2013, 05:22:20 PM
When we were kids we us to hunt for those down by the creek bed after a storm or just after a farmer would plow their field after a heavy rain. You would think there wasn't too much value in them since there are so many of them after so many thousands of years.
Title: Re: Real or fake ??
Post by: mart on August 01, 2013, 05:31:35 PM
Most don`t have a great monetary value !!  But the history and culture behind each is fascinating !!
Title: Re: Real or fake ??
Post by: KevinM on August 01, 2013, 05:40:35 PM
yes, when you find one you can feel the history and culture behind it and just think you were the first to hold it since it was last held and shot from their bow and what it was aimed at and who made it and when it was made and did it migrate with them in the spring after a long winter? They were fun to look for when I was a kid....
Title: Re: Real or fake ??
Post by: IlliniGuy on August 01, 2013, 05:50:27 PM
Most don`t have a great monetary value !!  But the history and culture behind each is fascinating !!
That is true but they are like any antique or collectible. The common stuff stays common, but high grade pieces have greatly appreciated over the years. There are lots of pieces out there that will bring six figures. The most expensive piece I have sold brought 3000 dollars and that was 20 years ago.
Title: Re: Real or fake ??
Post by: IlliniGuy on August 01, 2013, 05:57:25 PM
yes, when you find one you can feel the history and culture behind it and just think you were the first to hold it since it was last held and shot from their bow and what it was aimed at and who made it and when it was made and did it migrate with them in the spring after a long winter? They were fun to look for when I was a kid....
Another thought if you don't mind. The bow and arrow was invented in North America some 1500 years ago. The pieces I posted are 8000 to 10000 years old. Before the bow, the atlatl was used.
Title: Re: Real or fake ??
Post by: mart on August 01, 2013, 06:11:11 PM
Just curious but what brought that amount of money ??   
Title: Re: Real or fake ??
Post by: IlliniGuy on August 01, 2013, 07:54:28 PM
It was a Sloan Dalton, almost six inches. About 8500 B.C. and perfect. Sorry, I don't have a pic.
Title: Re: Real or fake ??
Post by: mart on August 01, 2013, 08:53:14 PM
No pics ???  Shame on you !!   Just kidding !!  Wish I had pics of the ones we had but,, when the Ex left,, so did the collection !!  A friend that we used to hunt with was walking Sulphur River one summer and found the most beautiful white quartz knife !!  Odd thing about it was that it was shaped more like our modern knives !! It would have been a hafted knife !! Never have seen another one like it !!   Around here we found a lot of points made of petrified wood but most were flint !! Found a few obsidian trade points that were nice !!  But nothing as good as the one you had !!
Title: Re: Real or fake ??
Post by: cogar on August 02, 2013, 05:01:59 AM
It was a Sloan Dalton, almost six inches. About 8500 B.C. and perfect. Sorry, I don't have a pic.

IlliniGuy, I have a spear point that is 6 ¼ inches long and is perfect, no flaws. It is the only flint artifact that I have ever found and I found it when living in Upstate New York. I was told by a SUNY Professor of Archeology that it was approximately 10,000 years old.

What is the retail value you would place on it?

Title: Re: Real or fake ??
Post by: IlliniGuy on August 02, 2013, 05:25:28 AM
Nice point Cogar. Points really vary a lot from region to region and NY is kinda out of my comfort zone. If it is undamaged as you say ( really hard to tell from the pic), I would say probably in the 300 to 500 range. One bit of caution though. I sure don't like seeing those copper wires holding it to the background. They can cause little chips that will affect the value greatly. I would recommend a case that uses pressure from foam backing to hold it against the glass. Value of points is determined by several things. Condition, Type, Material, Provenance, Size and quality of workmanship are the keys.
Title: Re: Real or fake ??
Post by: IlliniGuy on August 02, 2013, 05:32:15 AM
A point of this size could go for more but without having it in hand I am being conservative.
Title: Re: Real or fake ??
Post by: mart on August 02, 2013, 08:53:04 AM
I agree on those wires !!
Title: Re: Real or fake ??
Post by: cogar on August 02, 2013, 10:56:39 AM
Don't you all be frettin now, that is anodized steel wire, ..... not copper.

And they are just holding those relics in place, ...... not tightly clamping them to the backboard.
Title: Re: Real or fake ??
Post by: KC on August 02, 2013, 02:35:17 PM
Wow!!!  Love this stuff!!!
Title: Re: Real or fake ??
Post by: fancypants on August 02, 2013, 03:10:36 PM
Nice buncha tools , folks !

My family owned land that had a portion of Cahokia included on it ... lots of bird & game points from there in the family , traditionally passed on to the younger members for a few generations so far .

Just goes to show that you can find unusual things in the garden !