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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: plankton on August 17, 2013, 11:15:41 AM
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Hi all,
I'm new to the forum, so apologies in advance for mistakes, breaches of etiquette, etc etc.
I have a pair of ivory elephants, which were bought by my mother in Indonesia, circa 1960. That is what I have been led to believe though she did visit India and Japan at the same time. We have had the carvings in the family but know little about them.
Can any member tell us more, and if so, whether they are of any value ? They are approximately 12" in length (including tusks) and are very fat - 5" or so. They weigh 1lb 12ozs and 1lb 15ozs.
We are currently in Florida, USA, but are about to head back to Europe due to work and the last thing I wish to do is cause problems with customs due to current restrictions.
Thank you in advance.
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touchy subject..if they are made from elephant tusks,.do you have a certificate...provi ng that they were made before ...i think its 1947....if not...then.....you could have soapy bubble....getting rid of them....
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No, I do not have a certificate. I thought that was only a requirement for export and import ? I cannot prove their provenance further back than about 1960, I guess. I have them in photos from that period.
Thanks for the reply !
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if my ageing memory serves me well,..you may have a problem...1st,....can you prove that they are not, elephant ivory,2nd,...were they made after 47,..or before...?...3rd..having them in old photographs is no proof that they are old..unless said pics have a visible date on them....4th, the certificate i mention is,nt for import / export,... its to prove that they are not made from elephant ivory after 1947,....if they were made after this date..and from non elephant ivory...then you may be ok... but i think you should be careful,...if you are thinking of taking them abroad....
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Ah, okay. Understood. I thought the certificate was necessary for commercial applications, notably export and import. I had no idea there were restrictions on second-hand ivory inside a country. I'll wrap them up then and bury them in the garden. I have no wish for them to be found in our belongings if that's going to cause problems...
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we, if you are thinking of burying them in a garden....why not send them to me..and i,ll bury them in my garden... ;D..joking aside,i don,t think there is any need ...to panic.....yet,...just don,t take them on a plane....can,t you leave them with a relative or friend..who will keep them safe until you return....
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I cannot see the grain well enough to say they are ivory !! I don`t think they are !! can you take a closer pic of the bottom of either the front feet or back feet, one of each elephant !! Let me look at the grain !!
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Not really, we're here on a visa which is about to expire and our business here is done. We have no relatives here in the US so leaving them here is not going to be a solution. I was made aware of the problems that they might potentially cause by a friend who knows we are going back to Europe. They have unwittingly travelled well with us over the years, through various countries, and I have never given it a second thought.
Anyway, having posted this, I have had a quick look on the net and found this summary of the laws on eBay :
AFRICAN ELEPHANT: This is on the C.I.T.E.S. endangered species list. The importation, selling and buying of this ivory IS NOT ALLOWED INTERNATIONALLY. It cannot be exported or imported to the U.S. and most of the countries delegated to the U.N., BUT... it is LEGAL TO OWN, SELL, BUY, or SHIP within the boundaries of the U.S. and there are NO PERMITS or REGISTRATION requirements! *The majority of african elephant ivory is "old estate" ivory that was brought into this country since its' inception.
ASIAN ELEPHANT : Also on the C.I.T.E.S. Endangered species list and is ILLEGAL to buy, trade, sell, import or export anywhere internationally or INTERSTATE within the U.S.
It would appear that therefore I have to determine whether they are African or Indian ivory first, and then decide what to do if we want to do anything at all. It would follow also then that if they are Asian ivory, then I am confined to trading them in Florida only ? If they are African then I am free to sell them throughout the US, which was my original thought...
Thanks for your patience...if anyone knows whether it is easy to determine what species of elephant these came from I'd love to hear. Apparently, African ivory was exported to Indonesia regularly and even if these pieces were created there is it highly likely they were made from African ivory.
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Hi Mart,
I can assure you they are ivory. Several people over the years have done the hot-pin test on them, and they were identified as ivory by both Bonhams and Sotheby's over the years for insurance purposes (though they had little else to say about them). I've just never really given them much notice before until my friend commented on them recently. They were certainly valued at rather more than what a lump of plastic would sell for :) - I just wanted to know if they were worth anything in today's market and then we were going to make a decision on what to do with them.
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Nicely crafted carvings , plankton .
Ivory items sure can be a pain , when dealt with in a legal manner , in some cases .
You might give a customs inspector a phone call & maybe clear up any misunderstandings , proir to standing in line with a red face ... @ least they'll know you're trying to do the right/legal thing .
Consignment with an antique dealer (a reputable one , of course , with a contract) here in the states may be one of the ways to go , prior to your departure .
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If they have already been verified then I am not sure how you would say which elephant species they came from other than maybe DNA testing,, and I am not sure that is possible !! But you can rest assured the government has a way to tell !! You really need to do some further digging on this !! Has airport security ever asked about them ??
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fancypants - I like your suggestion, assuming you mean that a shop sends them to me as legal merchandise ?
Mart - they have not been verified as to species though.......... so maybe we should just say they are definitely African ivory to make it simple..... :D
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What about simply mailing/shipping them to yourself in Europe !! That would be no different from purchasing an item if you were in Europe and buying here in the states ?? Might take a few weeks for them to arrive but I am sure this is done often with no problems !!
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What about simply mailing/shipping them to yourself in Europe !! That would be no different from purchasing an item if you were in Europe and buying here in the states ?? Might take a few weeks for them to arrive but I am sure this is done often with no problems !!
Here's a PDF file that answers some of the questions on African ivory.
library.fws.gov/IA_Pubs/african_elephant_ivory99.pdf (http://library.fws.gov/IA_Pubs/african_elephant_ivory99.pdf)
You might be able to move the pieces out of the US, only to have them seized at the other end?
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In reading that it would be wise to go back to the appraisers for documentation !! Then go through whatever the customs office suggests !!
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Do you know more than your telling us? You seem so sure of the background of these elephants? Who has the original documentation that you are sure whether they came from Africa or Asia? Wouldn't that person have documentation of the age?
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Alas, no, I have no more information. I know my mother bought them in the early 1960's, I see them in photos from that era (perhaps she may have had them longer), and they have just been part of the furniture ever since. She died some time ago and of course, no one else has any information. I know what they were valued at for insurance purposes back in the 1980's, but that's it.
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Any valuation for insurance would be done with documentation to support it !! Insurance companies will not accept someones word for it !! It would have had paperwork !! Have you looked through the insurance papers ?? Even if done with a group of items there would have been a list , a description, the value and name and company name of those that placed the valuation on it !!
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Hi Mart,
I think you may have misunderstood me - I do have the old insurance papers from 1981. On these yhey were listed simply as "ivory elephants", and a value placed upon them. I also have the original valuation papers for household contents from both Sotheby's and Bonhams, in which they are also listed and which the insurance obviously used for their purposes. What i want to know now is what they might be worth, at which stage we'll make a decision on what to do. Taking them to another country, whether illegally or legally, is fraught with expense and danger.
I had hoped someone was going to tell me a little about them - whether they were indeed carved in the far east, and perhaps in which country. I have no idea how old they are either. My mother was just as likely to buy them from a tourist dealer as she was in a shop selling antiquities.
Thanks for the replies, everyone.
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Without some way of identifying these specific elephant carvings we really are at as much of a loss as you are !! There is no way to know who made them, when they were done, or what country they are from !! You may find similar pieces from several countries !! If it were me,, I would go with the assumption that they are African ivory and ask customs office for their recommendations !! I would always have a copy of the insurance papers with you showing they have been evaluated since there would be fewer questions asked with that documentation !! They may tell you do do the same as you did when you brought them into the U.S if you tell them you have those papers and can sort of prove their origin !! Its better than having nothing !!
Let me do some checking on value percentages up or down !!