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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: Petesy on August 26, 2013, 11:05:55 AM
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Hi Guys,
Apologies if I am posting this in the wrong section im a complete newbie to antiques & this forum it is something that has only recently peeked my interest.
so here goes.
I was wondering if anyone can help me, My grandfather used to own a few Public houses in Scotland, A while back (35 - 55 years ago) he found these 5 old 3D wooden posters/signs in the back of a cellar (under a load of rubbish) he kept them until he was about to throw them out last week to make space but i thought they were pretty cool pieces and clearly a fair bit of work had went into them when they where made (especially compared to today's standard). so i stored them in my man cave (garden shed)
and would love to get any info on them as i cant seem to find anything on the internet. (to be honest though apart from typing the company's into search engine i wouldn't really know where else to look)
Cheers
Dave
p.s The pics are too large to post so i can only do one at a time but there are 5 = 2x Ale advertisement's (Dickens Ash Ale and Olivers Bar Cobb Ale) which are a little bit on the creepy side, 1 x Spectacular Balloon Ascent which looks as if it where a public sign its pretty cool i would like to see about getting it restored 1 x Ransome and Simms Agricultural engineers and the 1 x south eastern and chatham (pic included) please feel to get in touch to let me know where i can post all the pics.
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Hi Dave,
Have you researched the South Eastern & Chatham Railway (must have operated in Kent and East Sussex, or thereabouts)? there is still a SE&CR Society that you could try contacting, they should be able to date it for you and may even be interested in what you have.
Good luck
http://www.southeasternandchathamrailway.org.uk/
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ps .. welcome aboard and look forward to seeing the other pics
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Thanks for the guidance mariok54, i will definitely send them a email, it seems to me it must have been a private collection for this style of poster/advertisement as the majority are completely different industry's. here's the balloon one i was hoping to restore seems more like a public announcement of a local event but its got so much craft behind it, did they not worry in these days the posters would get nicked/vandalized?
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Here is the Cobb ale one, clearly looks like its depicted from the musical/film Oliver
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The Dickens Ash Ale, Its by far the creepiest one imo. this one will be getting left out of the man cave set up lol
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i,ve got a cave here with a blank wall.....i think thats the best of the bunch.....oh...and welkome....
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HaHa thanks Bigwull, the guy puts me in mind of what im going to look like in a couple of years if i don't lay off the ale! the hairs already thinning to say the least and im only 25. ::)
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The final one Ransome & Simms Agricultural Engineering this is another big one but the paint has started to flake in the background makes it look a bit tattier than the rest although for all i know that could be due to age.
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Just realized the balloon one says spActacular not spectacular so after all the works done someone screws up with a spelling mistake on final cut... they must have been gutted when they realized. ;D
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Thanks heavens they didn`t go in the trash !! Advertising signs are one of the better things going nowdays !! And those 3-D signs should do well !! Haven`t seen many of those and usually they are not in best condition !! Haven`t seen all yours yet !!
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Thanks for the guidance mariok54, i will definitely send them a email, it seems to me it must have been a private collection for this style of poster/advertisement as the majority are completely different industry's. here's the balloon one i was hoping to restore seems more like a public announcement of a local event but its got so much craft behind it, did they not worry in these days the posters would get nicked/vandalized?
things gettng nicked and vandalized....is a recent trait..of todays youth....back in the 50,s/early 60,s... when i was a teenager...you did,nt vandalize things, nor...steal...cos if you did...your parents would be so ashamed, and...people in the street did not turn a blind eye....unlike today.....as for your signs..may i suggest..if you are looking to sell any of them....then you could always contact these people..regarding your oliver inn...and for the dickens one...well there,s a few bars in London called Dickens....you never know..what you,ve got just might be what they,ll like....you don,t get if you don,t ask....
http://uk.hotels.com/ho256807/oliver-inn-bed-and-breakfast-south-bend-united-states/
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Dickens looks like mini me, ;D
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Dickens looks like mini me, ;D
wrong Dickens...this is the one you,re getting him confused with.... ;D
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Dickens looks like mini me, ;D
I get it. He does, in fact.
Oliver looks more like Charles.
And stop giving Greenacres the dickens! ;)
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Haven`t checked on the balloon sign or the first one,,,but its odd that there is no record of Dickens ash ale or the other one !! And no signs anywhere for Ransome Simms,,or none that I could find !! No record of either ale sign !! You know they would have made more than one !!
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Great pieces, I think they are worth big pounds if they can be dated.
Advertising, folk art, primitives, etc., ...... gets the attention of different groups of collectors.
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I am with cogar big money here! I would contact Sotheby's with photos of the lot and ask for an auction estimate!! (even if you do not wish to sell) They will respond at no charge and I would get as much info as you could from them. Beautiful pieces!! Train collectors would love your train signs! They are all amazing!
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Good God=-dare I say it big wull I agree--
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I looked for similar signs,, couldn`t find any !!
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As mentioned earlier, the Railway sign is probably from Kent and East Sussex.
I've just found this that makes reference to Cobb's Ale which is a brew local to Kent. If you could find out where the Brewery is, you might even be able to establish when the pub was around, even the local historical society might be able to point you in a few directions.
the more you know about these I am convinced the more £££ you will achieve.
Good Luck!
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Forgot the LINK!!!!
http://www.camra-canterbury.org.uk/wp/2012/03/26/1966-a-canterbury-world-cup-memory/
You might even try contacting CAMRA (campaigners for real ale, for those who haven't haerd of them), they will know a lot about the local pubs, even those that have disappeared.
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I imagine that you've already found this, but it does locate three of these pieces to the South East region.
An interesting read
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ransomes,_Sims_%26_Jefferies
Just realised, my spelling is different to yours, but I can't quite make out the lettering on the actual sign because of the glare??
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Guys, im so glad i came here with my questions, thank you all for putting me in the right direction (and confirming i should not have let them be thrown out)! as a complete newbie the help is very much appreciated and its definitely started me on a new hobby so i cant thank you all enough!, I always thought Sotheby's only dealt in "big ticket" auction items so i never thought in a million years they would be interested in looking at these, I have emailed a gent named Terry for the Train one from the link mariok54 gave me, im hopeful i will hear back for more info (i will let you all know what the script is) the lead on the ale house is a good shout i will follow that up next, its definitely been some interesting reading. the Ransomes & Sims company started for 200gbp in 1789! i can only imagine how much that would equate to these days!
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I'm not trying to raise your hopes but these sort of items can fetch very good money, especially if original.
I found this... NOTE it is most probably (even DEFINITELY) NOT the same brewery ... but it does give you an idea of the sort of interest that there could be (looking at the estimate)
http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/3533794
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Wow, Ok as much as im liking this new found interest in antique/collecting, if i get $2k for one of these the money no longer goes towards furthering my antique collection but instead to my new motorbike...a players gotta play, 8)
That Cobb one though is great mario, I like it a hell of lot more than the freaky wee Dickens iv got!
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Can you show pics of the reverse sides? They were making reproduction signs in the 1970s/1980s at the time when your grandfather found these. They look to be in awfully good shape, maybe too good? I would check the back sides and look very closely at how they are made. Look really closely at the hardware used to assemble them. Nails, screws etc. can be very helpful with something like this.
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sure can, will get them posted up after work tomorrow. will also get some of the nails/screws etc is there anything in particular i am looking for?
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Just decent close-ups should help tell whether they're original or not.
Well done Tales for asking for what we should all have already asked !!
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What you want to see back there are things like off-kilter slots in the screw heads which would indicate that it was from a time prior to mass-produced hardware. Straight slots not Phillips head screws, square cut nails, oxidation (dark coloring) in the wood around the nails, maybe iron fittings. Here's a couple of photos from the back of my federal mirror. It shows hand-forged iron forged iron hardware, but there have been later modern additions. You can really see the difference between new and old. This mirror is circa 1810, so the differences you might see might not be as extreme:
One modern screw, the rest of the fittings are old:
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x124/talesofthesevenseas/Dining/FederalMirror5.jpg)
Iron hardware:
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x124/talesofthesevenseas/Dining/FederalMirror4.jpg)
Old and new hardware, old iron fittings with new manufactured steel brackets and screws added later:
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x124/talesofthesevenseas/Dining/FederalMirror2.jpg)
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;D
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Here's a photo showing how old antique nails darken the wood around them:
(http://image.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/66966/66966,1292868058,1/stock-photo-close-up-of-fragment-of-old-wooden-door-with-oxidized-forged-steel-knockers-and-nails-rivets-67561057.jpg)
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Tales, I think these signs were made mid century !!
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But which century?
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Now I wasa thinking that if the Ransome and Simms Agricultural sign is not an original then it was a “labor of love” by whoever made it or whoever paid to have it made. I really don’t think it’s a repro because of the limited market 35 - 55 years ago for such a sign.
I’m saying the above because of the precise “detail” employed in making the sign. See below for cropped enlargement of picture.
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But which century?
1900`s !! When everyone was doing them !! 3-D was a big thing !! Might not be but from what I see,,thats my guess !!
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Hi guys, i got some pics of the backs, sorry i didn't have a 2nd set of hands to help me get the pics so i had to put down my dslr and use my phone camera, sorry if the detail isn't there i tried to get the best of them,the train one has clearly had additional supports added (i did wonder why it felt sturdier when moving it) clearly this dosn't look like it had been done that long ago here's the first pic
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back of the balloon not train
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The ransome and simms hasnt had any further modifications and the back to me does seem a bit older but some of the screws still seem a bit shiny
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The back of the balloon one was loads of little small nails and it looks like copper wire was used?
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& finally the Ale ones where both boxed in, it is as if there are 2 layers of wood one heavy side for the backing and the front side (with the characters) looks like its the thinner side not sure if it would have been wood glue or nails underneath? should i inspect further
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Those were usually glued around the outside edge to the backing !! Sign itself is not very heavy !! Don`t look any further !!
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Hey those look really good! (As in OLD!) A couple of things I see are the off-kilter slots on a couple of the screws, and what really looks good are the straight (not circular) saw marks on the boards on the back of the balloon picture. See how those lines go straight up and down and they are not the grain of the wood? That was cut with an older style of saw. (I think Fancypants can elaborate on that?) These types of saws were used less after the circular saw became commonly used around 1870-ish. Looks old and potentially valuable to me!
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They look good to me as well. As mart says don't do anything else just yet; I know that you said that you'd like to renovate one, but I would hold on.
Let us know whether you hear anything from the links.
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Any thing you do other than dusting them off reduces any value they have by as much as 50% !!
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Interesting and unique for sure, but those gable board signs create some curious questions.
A couple being...the “Ransomes and Sims” leads you to believe that it is pre 1869 (that being the year the company name changed, and with the equipment shown). Yet on the other hand, the “South Eastern and Chatham Railway” didn’t start using that name combination until 1899. If it is a 1899+ era piece, why depict obliviously much earlier rolling stock to attract passengers?
Regardless, whether they are old originals or artistic recreations made to decorate a public house, they have the look that would be popular to a wide spectrum of buyers.
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I don't know about GB but in the states, antique wood signs are a big deal. There is a wide and varied collector market, antique people, folk art people, advertising people, etc. 18th/19th century tavern signs for instance, can go for 10s of thousands of dollars, repo's can get pricey too if done by a known artist.
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I am not sure that the 3-D part is wood !! There is a band around the outside of it that makes me think it was molded and applied to the wood !! I found a company in Kent, England that did smaller 3-D plaques by molding them in plaster then dipping them in wax to harden !! The company started in the UK 1898 and operated until the 60`s !! Sold out in 1971 and operated under a different name til 1996 !! Just can`t find anything large they did !! Most were historical images for decorative purposes !!
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These ones are fairly high res pics you should hopefully be able to zoom in, im pretty sure they are all wood or at least they felt like it however with the paint i would but im unsure, except the balloon the balloon bit is definitely not wooden i have no idea what technique would have been used its feels fairly solid (but i wouldn't want to test it!) i think perhaps plaster i do think the basket and wee men are wooden i will need to investigate more tomorrow but i will post a few more pics (fairly high re so can zoom)
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Dickens pic 2
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Cobb x 2
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Train
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Train 3
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Company history for Ransome & Sims
1850 - Ransomes & Sims, open London Office
1851 - Charles May leaves & Later starts Brown and May in Devizes.
1869 - Ransomes Sims & Head, (Also Ransomes & Rapier formed by agreement by 4 of firms engineers, takes over the rail components business)
So im hoping this one was made between 1850 - 1869
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and lastly
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Haven`t seen the last one yet but the others are all attached to the sign board !! You can clearly see the glue lines and the cobb ale there is a division around his head !! There is a hole where he would have had either hair or a hat attached !! The color is lighter where it would have been !! He is also missing something from his hand !! He and the ash ale look to be moulded and applied to the sign board !! The Ransome Sims is made of wood but also attached to the board !! Railway sign is made of wood too !! Neither would be difficult just a lot of pieces and glued together !!
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Ah right, so I think you are right about the plaster moulds, so the balloon one wouldnt be as old as i originally thought the ransome and sim and the trains would likely be wood glued together but would the majority of pieces be hand carved?
& would that make them a lot newer than I was originally hoping? (I take it the older the sign/poster the more valuable it would be?)
The Dickens guy is holding what looks like a wee glass (it didnt show up very well on the pics) at least that is what it looks like, however it may have been something that has broken off in the past, he is holding his hat on his left hand so im thinking it must have been hair if something were supposed to be there, i will look closer at it after work.
I still think they are pretty cool so if they have no real value I will stick to the original plan and just hang them up. (except that Dickens one! haha) I got them for free anyway so its not as if i have been ripped off.
Thanks again
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Well rest assured they do have value !! I would say quite a bit of value !! I missed the balloon one,, will go back and look !! I see nothing that indicates hand carved other than a few smaller pieces where it took little to create the shape !! Some parts are just wooden dowels !! Even with that,,add in the sign painters art that brings the pieces to life and you have some exceptional items !! Age is not much of a determining factor in value so much as the overall look and desireability of the signs !! Just don`t try to restore them,,touch them up,, or anything !! That kills their value !!
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"Ah right, so I think you are right about the plaster moulds, so the balloon one wouldnt be as old as i originally thought the ransome and sim and the trains would likely be wood glued together but would the majority of pieces be hand carved?
& would that make them a lot newer than I was originally hoping? (I take it the older the sign/poster the more valuable it would be?)"
Don't write them off until you get someone to look at them. If there are any plaster moulds then that does not mean they are not old, plaster has been around for a long time! It may have just been part of the design, but if it is plaster, then it survived well!
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True !! Plaster dates way back in history !! If they are plaster I would think it may have been mixed with something to make the figures less heavy !! Similar to the plaster medallions used in Victorian era !! Otherwise they would be super heavy and the sheer weight would have likely made them separate from the wood backing !! These seem to be in good condition considering where they were found !! If you just take into consideration the board/frame weight and the figures don`t seem to add much to it,, then could be a more modern material !!! You can tell plaster or modern material by tapping with your fingernail on the figures !! Modern resins are hollow for signs and have a higher pitched tone than plaster that is usually thicker and sounds rather dull and flat !!
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I'm going to sit this one out without a hands on!
Back in the mid 1900's in Texas there was a big importer that brought in LOTS of signs similar to these that were repros and sold for a decent price in the Dallas/FW and Houston areas. They were 3D like the ones with the people.
I can't say as the one with all the intricate work on it I have seen any like it.
They are nice!
Did you say where you are located?
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Hi KC, Im from Glasgow, Scotland
I sent an email to Sotheby's (Edinburgh office) today, so Im curious to see what info they can give and hopefully get a rough guide as to the value of them, who knows maybe im sitting on a wee winner and I can completely redesign and rebuild my man cave!
I will post If i get any reply's back.
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Are you a Blue nose Weegie...or a Bhoy..... ;D...oh....an welcome.....
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Cheers Bigwull,Haha, who would support one of those magnets of corruption? ;D Claret and Amber run through these vain's!
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Hi KC, Im from Glasgow, Scotland
I sent an email to Sotheby's (Edinburgh office) today, so Im curious to see what info they can give and hopefully get a rough guide as to the value of them, who knows maybe im sitting on a wee winner and I can completely redesign and rebuild my man cave!
I will post If i get any reply's back.
I hope that Sotherby's come back with a positive response, but don't be dispirited if you get a reply saying that it is not the sort of item that they normally deal with (usually suggesting that they don't think that it'll achieve a high enough hammer price to make it worth their while). I've had the same experience with them on two occasions (one I think was the subject of a post a couple of years back) ... in both cases I went to local Auction Houses and lets just say I was very pleasantly surprised with the final hammer price (would have been well worth Sotherby's time) and the commission was 5% less that what I'd have paid Sotherby's. With so many Auction Houses having their catalogues on-line, together with live on-line bidding (see sites like http://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues ) then your pieces are seen Worldwide!
If you're in Glasgow then why not take one or two along to one of the big auction houses there, they all have free appraisal days; Great Western Auctions are on Dumbarton Road, for example.
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Excellent idea !!
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And Great Western are very high profile as I believe that they have Anita Manning (or used to) as an auctioneer
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Hi Guys,
I received an email from a helpful chap named Jim, so you were correct in saying the signs are not of great age.
he wrote:
Dave,
A couple of these have appeared recently. They have no historic value but as you say they are quite decorative and ideal for pubs restaurants etc.
As far as the sign is concerned the style depicts a train from the 1830's. It is not strictly accurate but it gives a fair impression. The South Eastern and Chatham Railway was not formed until 1899.
The red (purple lake) colour of the background is fairly close to the colour of carriages on the SECR and the gold or yellow lettering is in a 19th century style. I have attached part of a genuine sign from the late 19th century so you can compare the style.
I don't know when they were made or by whom but they are fairly modern. If you find out I would be interested to know. You say you found 5 signs. Were they all identical? Different railways perhaps?
IF you found the right outlet I would think the sign should fetch £200+ as a decorative piece. It has size on its side!
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So a nice bit of extra info on the train one, I can take to the local appraiser in Glasgow, I still don't know what i want to do with them yet. sell and go hunting for the next piece or enjoy them for a bit longer...
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Did you show him the ale signs ?? Or just the railway sign ??
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Hi mart, I only sent him the train one via email, but i did however give him the link to this forum so he will perhaps give it a read and see the other ones.
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I was almost positive they were not that old,, but since I found so little,, almost nothing about the ale signs or the ale itself,, was curious about them !! Maybe he will take a look !! I think they would do well here in the states !!
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almost anything does well in the States....from what i,ve seen.....more money than sense.... ;D...now where did i put my coat....
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Yea from what iv heard/seen they would be very well suited to state side, their seems to be a huge market over the pond, I think unfortunately there is not as large a market in the UK but again I may be wrong and they would could do well.
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claret & amber....Mmm...is that a posh name for...yellow an reed....has tae be either up Maryhill way.wi the Jags......or doon wi the Steelmen... ;D....
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aye the steelmen all the way! been glued to sky sports news all day today, this early close transfer window in Scotland is a bit bizarre! & although I did live in Maryhill for a year I moved quick sharp back home to Uddingston, I prefer walking down the street and people saying hello rather than walking down the street and getting a Glasgow kiss ;D
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yer right there.,..place is chock foo wi headbangers....i,ve been tae Uddingston a few times....always tae the Model Centre..on Main St,...big boys toys....
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Aye wull its got a few nice wee shops, far too many hairdressers though! must be the best groomed area in Scotland wi the amount they huv, always thought a antique/small auction house would do well down here, 12 hairdressers/barbers/stylist and a dog salon yet try finding a place to buy a watch wits that aboot?, They must be all puntin this end and needin to clean their cash lol
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Oh Great !! Now we have two to translate !! ;D Might as well change my heritage from Ireland to Scotland !!
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Oh Great !! Now we have two to translate !! ;D Might as well change my heritage from Ireland to Scotland !!
you think this is bad Mart...god help you if an Aiberdonian comes on here..spooting his Doric.....or even an Edinbugger...we know them as a gadge... ;D
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I know right mart!! ;) I love it the accent I have in my head when I read their posts makes me giggle!! ;D
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LOL !! Oh yes !!
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HaHa I only get really bad when i know im talking to a fellow Scots, especially when there are Englishmen about i like to confuse them :P
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Engerlanders are few and far between on here Petesy,....mostly....Texans...like Mart....for instance....she lives in the boonies.....think oor highlands....4 days from anywhere...and no broadband.....casn you imagine that...no broadband......it must be like living in the stone age...and the stage only passes once a month...and only if its dry..if its pishin it doon...nae stage..... ;D.
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Like to rub it in don`t ya` Wullie !!! :D
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Like to rub it in don`t ya` Wullie !!! :D
eh,ve nae doot that you,ll mak me pay for it..... :D....an i,ll tak it the way you tak it.....
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And that would be with a smile !! I hope !! :D
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And that would be with a smile !! I hope !! :D
ah.well....the less said about that little glitch the better...but .em, still hae,in trouble findin a ma toys..... ;D
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LOL !! Keep looking Wullie,,,just keep looking !! :D