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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: icedgold10 on September 14, 2013, 06:59:43 PM
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Antique oil painting of nun on wood panel , artist signature & age help? I got this painting at an estate sale today. Trying to identify artist signature and age. Any help would be great. Thank you. http://s1255.photobucket.com/user/icedgold10/library/Nun%20on%20wood%20panel
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I can't make out all the letters in the signature. What does it read? Also could we see the back?
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The back has been repapered. I'm not sure it's the original frame. I have several pictures at http://s1255.photobucket.com/user/icedgold10/library/Nun%20on%20wood%20panel Just copy and paste. I'm not sure if I should remove the paper or not? I don't want to damage it. I have an email out to Helaine Fendelman at Country Living Magazine, she has helped me in the past. Hoping to hear back from her soon.
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I got brave and have put pics of back on the link. Where the paper was redone I didn't think it would compromise it. It has a catalog number and Roma on it.
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The paper on back is not important !! Its only a dust cover to keep the canvas reasonably clean !! If it has a catalogue number it was likely auctioned at some point !!
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Can you please let us know what the signature is? I can't make it out except for the J (for sure).
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Is it JB and then numbers or JB then letters ?
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It looks like JB roo.
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Hi Icedgold,
Is there any chance of taking a photo of just the corner with the signature, without using the flash, and there may be a chance of making out any missing, faint letters? It would be nice to have a success with this one.
Many thanks
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This lady (oil on canvas) was offered for auction in 2011 by the Willis Henry Auctions out of Massachusetts. The artists signature reads Lucille Fenton. I wasn't able to find any auction results. I'm thinking likely a copy by an admiring artist.
"Early 20th c. oil on canvas, nun reading the Bible, signed l.r. "Lucille Fenton" (1912-2001), titled on reverse "Light of the Bible", artist signed on back, 28" x 20". "
http://www.willishenry.com/Estates%20Auction%202011/cat2011estate201-225.htm
http://www.willishenryauctions.com/w/
Add* Just wondering who's is a copy of who's ???
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Well found sapphire, and it actually poses a few more questions. Why, if you are going to copy a painting, do you not faithfully follow the colour scheme (look at sleeves etc)? And who has done the original, and who the copy?
Also, Lucille Fenton's paintings never fetched very high prices ?
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We must get someone in Scotland (hint hint) to do a little sleuthing as Lucille Fenton apparently resided there in later life. I found a picture and reference of her from Grange Hall Nursing home, Melrose, Scotland. ;) Really haven't found much info on her.
http://www.bordercare.com/newsframe-care.htm
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Seems like we both had the same idea, sapphire ... and this one seems to have been up for offer on ebay, but the listing has now disappeared
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=nun+reading+bible&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=np&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=nrI1UqjeL8yO7QbRg4DQAw&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1366&bih=638&dpr=1#channel=np&q=oil+painting+nun+reading+bible&rls=org.mozilla:en-US%3Aofficial&tbm=isch&facrc=_&imgrc=pcwI8j7GLYe_fM%3A%3BdMlJXblximEPhM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fthumbs4.ebaystatic.com%252Fd%252Fl225%252Fm%252FmgutInNUvxCDoUoA7vTA4Rg.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.ebay.com%252Fsch%252Fi.html%253F_kw%253DArt%252Bbible%3B213%3B225
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We must get someone in Scotland (hint hint) to do a little sleuthing as Lucille Fenton apparently resided there in later life. I found a picture and reference of her from Grange Hall Nursing home, Melrose, Scotland. ;) Really haven't found much info on her.
http://www.bordercare.com/newsframe-care.htm
Hi Sapphire, not sure this is the same artist. The dates given state she died in 2001, but that picture was taken in 2008 (that almost caught me at first)
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Posting at the same time mario........anothe r artist, same name, I believe. I located a death record for Lucille A. Fenton 1912-2001.
"Lucille A Fenton was born on September 18, 1912 and died on February 21, 2001 at the age of 88. This person last resided in Brewster, Massachusetts in Barnstable County."
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Possibly both artists copied from an earlier painting?? To me the subject appears to represent a much earlier era.
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Possibly both artists copied from an earlier painting?? To me the subject appears to represent a much earlier era.
It'll be nice to get a look clear look at that signature ....
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Reminiscent of Rembrandt's Old Woman Reading........
http://images.google.com/search?hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1220&bih=668&q=rembrandt+old+woman+reading&oq=rembrandt+old+wo&gs_l=img.1.0.0l2j0i24.1082.6551.0.8339.18.9.1.7.8.0.224.994.0j6j1.7.0....0...1ac.1.26.img..3.15.1034.WBOJaeMYpwI
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Posting at the same time mario........anothe r artist, same name, I believe. I located a death record for Lucille A. Fenton 1912-2001.
"Lucille A Fenton was born on September 18, 1912 and died on February 21, 2001 at the age of 88. This person last resided in Brewster, Massachusetts in Barnstable County."
That Lucile / Lucille Fenton painted landscapes / still lifes.
There is a possibility here. A long shot. The two people were painting the same sbject, say in art class or similar. Slightly different angles of the same woman. The sleeves are the same colour, just different light.
Don't think it's possible for two people to paint their own depiction of a masters work ( say Rembrandt ) and the finished paintings look as identical as they do.
I catalogued this a few years ago
(http://i40.tinypic.com/28wlzr4.jpg)
and noticed it's similarity to this by Gabriel Metsu
(http://www.gabrielmetsu.org/Man-Writing-a-Letter-1662-65.jpg)
Definitely an ' homage '.
Also the use of panel for the nun. Usually used by artists up to the mid 19th century, so this painting is slightly confusing ! A clearer image of the sig would help.
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Must have been a popular subject for a few painters:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-OIL-PAINTING-OF-ELDERLY-NUN-READING-BIBLE-SIGNED-TH-/161052481483?nma=true&si=Xk3hp13oWbLYkq1DCw%252BX6kR7sTQ%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-OIL-PAINTING-OF-ELDERLY-NUN-READING-BIBLE-SIGNED-TH-/161052481483?nma=true&si=Xk3hp13oWbLYkq1DCw%252BX6kR7sTQ%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557)
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The one on Ebay seems to be a bit different and on canvas. It doesn't appear as old to me. Not sure. The new pictures I put in the Photobucket album show the signature clearer and the image too.
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Images still aren't clear. Are you using a phone ?
Most cameras have a macro setting which helps focus at close distance
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I just took this one . It's a regular digital camera, I'm not great at photos. It looks like it might say JB200 on the back it says 680 1 1/2 2697 roma
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The more I look at it looks like J.B. c00. Not sure if that means anything?
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Looks like JBrag to me !! I am thinking this must have been someones artist workshop project !! As a rule artists just do not use initials only as a signature !! Students often do before they develop their own style !! The Initials and the way its written just feel like student work !!
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A BIG Thank you to all that have tried to help! I'm still on my quest to find out more about this painting...
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Well found sapphire, and it actually poses a few more questions. Why, if you are going to copy a painting, do you not faithfully follow the colour scheme (look at sleeves etc)? And who has done the original, and who the copy?
Also, Lucille Fenton's paintings never fetched very high prices ?
Students are encouraged to use their artistic license and to paint the picture as they see it !! Not necessarily how it was originally done !! 10 different students will usually give you 10 different versions of the same painting !! Using older works as the subject is common !! The intent was never to copy but to let the student get a feel for color and how it changed the feel of a painting !! Even the slightest change in tone can affect the mood of a painting !! Most used are those in the public domain !!
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Well found sapphire, and it actually poses a few more questions. Why, if you are going to copy a painting, do you not faithfully follow the colour scheme (look at sleeves etc)? And who has done the original, and who the copy?
Also, Lucille Fenton's paintings never fetched very high prices ?
Students are encouraged to use their artistic license and to paint the picture as they see it !! Not necessarily how it was originally done !! 10 different students will usually give you 10 different versions of the same painting !! Using older works as the subject is common !! The intent was never to copy but to let the student get a feel for color and how it changed the feel of a painting !! Even the slightest change in tone can affect the mood of a painting !! Most used are those in the public domain !!
Sound suggestion mart. What I still find confusing is that both Lucille Fentons seem to have been talented amateurs, even the one attributed to painting the nun that went to Auction. That one on ebay also seems to be a fairly amateurish attempt. So they seem to be copying a painting, but still a question of 'which one'?
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Three different people painted almost identical depictions of an original we can't find ?
Unlikely.
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Here is a Rembrant that looks like it could be an inspiration for the painting.
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But then why have three different people chosen the same different angle ?
There are many depictions of nuns reading bibles. Not seen one that would motivate three different people to paint as they have.
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I totally agree. I did notice that the angle was different. I still haven't found that angle on anything yet. I still find that most paintings I see are on canvas not the wood panel.
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I was noticing the big difference in the shadow on the hand in mine and the other one posted. Any thoughts on that technique?
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Here is a Rembrant that looks like it could be an inspiration for the painting.
Not through my eyes....could be anyone......
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What size is the painting itself ?? Frame not included !!
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It is 10" x 8"
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Can you take a close up of the back of the wood panel !! Need to see the kind of wood panel it is !! 8X10 is a pretty standard size for sketches or preliminary works !!
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Here is the back of it. Seems to be a hard wood.
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Mmmm,,Sort of looks like maple !!
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Is there any 'age' to the nails/tacks?
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I got brave and have put pics of back on the link. Where the paper was redone I didn't think it would compromise it. It has a catalog number and Roma on it.
Can you tell me the catalogue number and anything else written on back exactly as written ?? Can`t read it from the pics !!
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680
1 1/2 2697 roma
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680
1 1/2 2697 roma
Correction it is roo ma? I also found more writing 2747 j d. roo
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http://www.mrarts.org/information.html
Ok Now this may be a total coincidence but I googled the first set of numbers without the Roma or Roo Ma and one of the listings was a vague set of directions, US 680 1 1/2 mi. south of Logan Utah,, 2697 Niagara Trail I think it was !! It was all ,like I said rather vague, but it was directions to the above !! Museum of Religious Arts !! Phone 712-644-3888 !! Wondering if maybe this organization has something to do with it or maybe it was shown there at some time !! Might be worth a call !! Since it for religious art maybe they know something or can help !!
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Wow, that is interesting. I'm going to call them and see if they can help. Thank you!
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Check the link and it will give you hours they are open !! Like I said it may be nothing,,,but doesn`t hurt to ask !! Maybe they can give you some insight on your painting !!
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I just sent them an email with the picture link asking for their help. Keeping my fingers crossed. Even though my painting has been called creepy and unattractive by a couple of people I think it is well done and I like it.
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Did you find this painting in Massachusetts?
The one thing that all three of the paintings included in this topic might have in common besides the subject matter is Massachusetts.
One was sold at an auction there...one was framed there...and yours is marked "MA" on the back.
????
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I found it in Maine. Of course we are very close to MA so it does make sense.
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http://www.mrarts.org/information.html
Ok Now this may be a total coincidence but I googled the first set of numbers without the Roma or Roo Ma and one of the listings was a vague set of directions, US 680 1 1/2 mi. south of Logan Utah,, 2697 Niagara Trail I think it was !! It was all ,like I said rather vague, but it was directions to the above !! Museum of Religious Arts !! Phone 712-644-3888 !! Wondering if maybe this organization has something to do with it or maybe it was shown there at some time !! Might be worth a call !! Since it for religious art maybe they know something or can help !!
What an amazing coincidence !!
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Well, you know that it doesn`t make any difference what you put in google,,something will be found somewhere !! Its possible that the name at the bottom JD Roo (may be a misspelling) could have something to do with it !! And the Roo Ma above could me a last name and MA for Maine !!
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Pure speculation on my part; but let us assume for the moment that 3 paintings of the identical subject could originate in Massachusetts. To me that could mean that 3+ individuals partook in an art instruction class, with each painting / copying the same thing.
BTW: Checking the “white pages”, I do see the surname “Roo” appearing in MA.
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Pure speculation on my part; but let us assume for the moment that 3 paintings of the identical subject could originate in Massachusetts. To me that could mean that 3+ individuals partook in an art instruction class, with each painting / copying the same thing.
BTW: Checking the “white pages”, I do see the surname “Roo” appearing in MA.
But what were they copying? One is on wood and 2 were on canvas? Wouldn't they all be using the same in an art class? Just trying to run different ideas. I have been looking through thousands of paintings trying to figure out the inspiration. Where is the smiley that is banging its head agianst the wall? lol
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Well, you know that it doesn`t make any difference what you put in google,,something will be found somewhere !! Its possible that the name at the bottom JD Roo (may be a misspelling) could have something to do with it !! And the Roo Ma above could me a last name and MA for Maine !!
ma is in lower case though. And it's JB, i think, with " ~00 " possibly as a date. Just can't see it being JD or JB Roo. It's definitely not a capital R.
Chasing ghosts here, i think
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Any guesses on a date? Time period? The paint seems to have some age on it because it does have cracking. I think you may be right on the not being roo. It just may be someone's interpetation of it on the back. Do you know of any times that you have seen the 00 used on a painting?
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Possibly a live model rather than working from another painting !! Therefore different interpretations !! Many old school artists did this !! I meant MA for Massachusetts, instead of Maine !! Thinking about too many states here !!
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This one by Brekelenkam, Quiringh van (ca. 1622 - ca. 1669) has a similar tone to it.
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Any guesses on a date? Time period? The paint seems to have some age on it because it does have cracking. I think you may be right on the not being roo. It just may be someone's interpetation of it on the back. Do you know of any times that you have seen the 00 used on a painting?
Yes, two figures for a date is very common. So '00 would be 1900 here. However, i'm not immediately convinced the wood is that old.
Difficult to tell under flash photography.
" Panel " is normally reserved for an oak or something similar. Thicker than " board ", which is normally used when describing a lighter, thinner wood. Thicker panels tend to be much older works, whereas boards are generally within the last 150 years or so.
One of those situations where we're unlikely to confirm the origin of these paintings but my best educated guess would be an art class or similar. Very common to find people painting in the manner of a well known master or painting, but three almost identical works of an otherwise unknown subject ?
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Well, you know that it doesn`t make any difference what you put in google,,something will be found somewhere !! Its possible that the name at the bottom JD Roo (may be a misspelling) could have something to do with it !! And the Roo Ma above could me a last name and MA for Maine !!
ma is in lower case though. And it's JB, i think, with " ~00 " possibly as a date. Just can't see it being JD or JB Roo. It's definitely not a capital R.
Chasing ghosts here, i think
You,hit the nail on the head....and not before time.....