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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: Makafi on November 01, 2013, 05:52:08 PM
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Hi Everyone,
I have a unique dagger. I asked for valuation on "value my staff" but they seems to dodge. Hope somebody could help me.
Photos:
Dagger is OLD (medieval I think), it has sheath made half ivory half wood with very interesting engravings. There is Tudor's coat of arms with sourronding "ribbon" saying "hony soit qui mal y pense" (typical for the Order of the Garter). Below there is Henry VII bust signed "Henry VII". I assume it's original dagger of one of 24th Order of the Garter knights, but of course I may be wrong.
I'm looking any information on this dagger, valuation would be perfect but maybe some facts, drawings, references, something...
Wishing all the best,
Makafi
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welcome,...first of all could you post the pics direvtly onto here..as there are some members who will not be able to view the pics as their operating on dial up....now to this dagger,..before we go any further...may i ask how you came by it...what country are you in...and most importantly...what makes you think its genuine,...because if it is...you may have to tell your boss where to shove his job..."But"..on the other hand...it may be a repro,...first we will ask you have you done a hot needle test...to determine if the crossbar and sheath are made of resin...if you have,nt then i suggest you pick an out of the way spot and do this...as it will tell you one way or the other...
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Wow, i wish i could see this first hand !
How have you come by it, or where did you get it from ?
Looks exquisite.
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Hi. I'm attaching photos (previous links won't work) and in the evening I'll deliver more detailed ones.
It's 100% ivory - I did hot needle test - also it has discoloration typical for ivory.
We found this dagger in Poland, it lay in the attic covered with dust since WWI - mine greatgrandfather is already dead so we can't ask him where did he get it.
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Is the sheath just covered on one side ? And what does the other side of the hilt look like ?
Yeah, it looked like ivory just going on the photos.
I think it's amazing.
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Is the sheath just covered on one side ?
Yes, the second side of sheath is made of wood. As it become bone dry with time, the wood doesn't hold ivory rivets in the place (holes are too big) - that's why you can see elastic rubber on both ends, I put them on to hold the parts together (I'm not crazy to glue this or something).
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I like the sound of that actually. Any chance of a couple of clearer images, especially the hilt and the blade ?
Looks like a presentation piece, just trying to ascertain age.
I know of something similar but need more evidence
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I like the sound of that actually. Any chance of a couple of clearer images, especially the hilt and the blade ?
Looks like a presentation piece, just trying to ascertain age.
I know of something similar but need more evidence
Yes, I'll make and upload images in the evening, right now I'm out and about.
The only similar piece I found was: http://www.eliteauction.com/catalogues/011412/view.php?id=9
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Sorry for multiposting but I want to upload images with full resolution.
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Final image. Again, sorry for multiposting, the max size allowes to upload only 1 pict in that res/size.
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I like the sound of that actually. Any chance of a couple of clearer images, especially the hilt and the blade ?
Looks like a presentation piece, just trying to ascertain age.
I know of something similar but need more evidence
Could you please share your opinion and this similar piece you know of?
I'm completely layman in antique weapons so my observations could be totally wrong, but here they are:
1. Hilt - seems to be highly practical - cloth and pieces of leather (anti-slip I guess). It does not match the rich carvings, if that is the presentation item. Also, it seems that texture of the fabric is threadbare, like it have been used, not only presented.
2. Back side of sheath - also highly practical, as any carvings on that side could damage the clothes (especially delicate fabric worn by noble ones - like velvet used for ceremonial robes/mantles of Order of the Garter members) and also seems to be worn and torn.
3. Front side of sheath - these carvings are so rich and done with such precision, that comparing with presentation item like http://www.eliteauction.com/catalogues/011412/view.php?id=9 for sure they were made by better skilled (or better paid) artist.
4. Originally in the collar of the Order, each garter is surrounded by 2 roses but Henry VII changed the design for one rose only - there are 2 roses under Henry VII bust on the sheath.
5. As symbolism of the carvings isn't coincidental, I assume that those bottom carvings also mean something: halberds, swords, spears, shield and armor may point that the original owner was somehow connected with weapons. The face at the bottom may be the portrait of the original owner, for which the dagger was crafted.
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http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/two-carved-ivory-daggers-and-sheaths-german-1328248-details.aspx?pos=95&intObjectID=1328248&sid= (http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/two-carved-ivory-daggers-and-sheaths-german-1328248-details.aspx?pos=95&intObjectID=1328248&sid=)
( on the left )
The following one was made in the 17th century and features Henry VII
(http://media.vam.ac.uk/media/thira/collection_images/2006AJ/2006AJ9526_jpg_l.jpg)
The " trophy of arms " is often seen on military swords and daggers, either on the blade on the sheath scabbard.
It may well have been worn but this isn't something to use in battle - think about the practicality of an ivory crossgaurd. Presentation / ceremonial is my opinion
more later once i've had an archive search !
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Thank you very much!
I wrote "presentation" in the meaning "put this on top of your fireplace" - of course I agree that it's ceremonial item - rather than a battle weapon.
If you'll find anything - please share. I should receive opinion from "Value My Stuff" tomorrow so we'll be able to check, if our investigation went the proper track :)
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You mean " Value My Stuff " ?
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Yes, sorry about that, a typo but it turns out to be funny a bit :D I'll correct this.
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I'm saying early to mid 19th, possibly made in Dieppe
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In fact, having said that and searched for Dieppe specifically, i found this
http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=3754 (http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=3754)
(http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos/items/54/003754/ph-0.jpg)
Note particularly the style of carving and the calligraphy used for the name. The " font " is basically identical. The blade is also a match.
You should contact the museum in Dieppe
chateau-musee@mairie-dieppe.fr
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Thank you so much!! For sure I'll contact them.
I've just received valuation from Value My Stuff - seems so incompetent when compared with your findings, or maybe they think their target customers are not so curious:
Date: 1840-1870s.
This is an "antique" replica most likely sold on a "grand tour. This so called "fantasy piece" was extremely expensive when sold as original in 1860s. The Grand Tour was the traditional trip in Europe undertaken by mainly upper-class European young men of means. Though primarily associated with the British nobility and wealthy landed gentry, similar trips were made by wealthy young men of other countries including the U.S. The tradition was extended to include more of the middle class after rail and steamship travel made the journey less of a burden, and the tour was considered a "right of passage" for young men.
Value:
£1,500 - £2,000
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There's more explanation of a Grand Tour than the item itself !
However, they've given a similar date to me and Dieppe may have been a stop off point on a Grand Tour. More likely it was made there and sold in a top class emporium in Paris, London etc and possibly presented to someone as a gift or coming of age present, possibly to be passed on down through the family. Unfortunately, the history and provenance is lost but it's still a lovely item.
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Do you think the valuation is accurate?
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If i was cataloguing it for auction i would want a lower estimate, although i'd hope it would reach the figure they've given.
A couple of years ago i catalogued an ivory plaque by this artist / sculptor
http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O89694/oliver-cromwell-1599-1658-relief-van-der-hagen/ (http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O89694/oliver-cromwell-1599-1658-relief-van-der-hagen/)
Very few are sold at auction and the subject was unknown, unlike his carvings of Cromwell, Elisabeth I etc. I managed to get it into the catalogue in the hundreds...it fetched £6,000 ( more than £7,000 when adding commission )
It can be risky but i usually find that the more people who think they've a chance, the higher the price. Get the people in the rooms, get the internet bidders, get the people on the phones. Smack a big price on something and usually the bidders don't register their interest.
Contact the museum
Contact that website i've linked to, ask them how much they sold that dagger for, and if they reply know that yours is better.
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I'll do that. Thanks a million!
Sorry to be a pain but I'm a total newbie - can you reccomend where to sell it in the UK?
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You South or North ?
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Bristol :)