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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: MrMahoot on November 07, 2013, 02:35:58 PM
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What or where is the best place to go to get info on dating a piece of furniture? I have found some basics in books but being a complete novice t is proving harder than I thought to date things. Is there a decent website or sites that will help? some of the site seem to contradict each other.
regards
MrMahoot
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Get yourself, an antique collectors Bible..."The Millers Antique Guide,..lots on ebay...much cheapness
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I picked up an octagonal occasional table, from the Miller guide the legs look like they are dated at 1810 but I am unsure. I think it is rosewood and it measure 27" high by 30" across. There are no circular saw marks on the wood, other than that I don't have a clue.
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circular saw marks...i should bloody well hope not...
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Get yourself, an antique collectors Bible..."The Millers Antique Guide,..lots on ebay...much cheapness
Which one? The one by Judith Miller or the one by Martin Miller?
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That's a tall order !! There are many things that will help but just remember that when dealing with furniture,,nothing is cut and dried,,,yes or no !! There will be a lot of maybe`s !! I have a few sites that will help you as far as style and what to look for !! Best thing is to post your pics here and then ask questions !! Start small with one style and read what you can about it, look at google images and see all the variations and again ask questions before you try to take them in all at once !!~ And remember that even though one style was 19th century,, there will always be the revival styles that are 20th century !! Let me look and see whats on my desktop !! Should keep you busy a while !!
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http://buffaloah.com/f/glos/legs/legs.html
This is a good site to help you know all the bits and pieces of furniture !!
http://www.gustavstickley.com/stickley-furniture.html
This might be of interest if you like the Arts & Crafts period !!
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Get yourself, an antique collectors Bible..."The Millers Antique Guide,..lots on ebay...much cheapness
......
Which one? The one by Judith Miller or the one by Martin Miller?
Mmm!!...another rivet counter...just what this place needs..we,ll go with..JM...as MM...was a Czech actor... ;D
https://www.google.co.uk/search?newwindow=1&q=martin+miller+actor&stick=H4sIAAAAAAAAAGOovnz8BQMDAx8HixKXfq6-QXKZeVZlSafXpCvVCUbLc1TmaLXF7iwu2sN0EwBk6s3AKwAAAA&sa=X&ei=dhR8Utf_PNKqhAev7oHoBg&ved=0CKsBEOkTMBE&biw=1184&bih=573.
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Turn the table upside down and take a pic of the underside please !! Are you in the U.S ??
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What!!....no bottom...you and your sidekick..are becoming like twa peas in a pod... ;D
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It looks like Rocco style furniture.
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He is either not in the U.S or its an import I think !!
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How to date furniture?
Construction details is the best way, actually, it's about the only way really.
For instance, your table appears to be Eastlake, C 1870-1900 in style because of the clean, incised lines on the apron and the fretwork on legs below. Is it a period Eastlake piece? I dunno but, the construction details would reveal that info pretty quickly.
http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/1113522
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Get yourself, an antique collectors Bible..."The Millers Antique Guide,..lots on ebay...much cheapness
That's only visual.
Exhibitions, galleries, auction houses, even just " window shopping " at respected outlets - see things first hand.
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How to date furniture?
Construction details is the best way, actually, it's about the only way really.
For instance, your table appears to be Eastlake, C 1870-1900 in style because of the clean, incised lines on the apron and the fretwork on legs below. Is it a period Eastlake piece? I dunno but, the construction details would reveal that info pretty quickly.
http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/1113522
The wood doesn't look as old as that to me, also the over elaborated legs....
American furniture is best left to the Americans.
It's inferior anyway :P
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Sorry I did not mention i am based in the UK and as far as I am aware the table is English and not an attempt at an American copy
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How to date furniture?
Construction details is the best way, actually, it's about the only way really.
For instance, your table appears to be Eastlake, C 1870-1900 in style because of the clean, incised lines on the apron and the fretwork on legs below. Is it a period Eastlake piece? I dunno but, the construction details would reveal that info pretty quickly.
http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/1113522
There's that superior attitude that made the English "loved" the world over! ;D ;D
BTW, the table looks like ca. 1870.
The wood doesn't look as old as that to me, also the over elaborated legs....
American furniture is best left to the Americans.
It's inferior anyway :P
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It's inferior anyway
LOL, Hardly
I was gonna say, if one looks at the hot water radiator in background, it looks european, not American. Now confirmed, it's most likely an english table, obviously an inferior constructed piece!
I think the wood is mahogany, not rose wood and i am going to guess slightly later than ghopper's 1870 because of those buttons on legs from the shelf which suggests an Art & Craft element to the piece, i guess 1890.
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Get yourself, an antique collectors Bible..."The Millers Antique Guide,..lots on ebay...much cheapness
......
Which one? The one by Judith Miller or the one by Martin Miller?
Mmm!!...another rivet counter...just what this place needs..we,ll go with..JM...as MM...was a Czech actor... ;D
https://www.google.co.uk/search?newwindow=1&q=martin+miller+actor&stick=H4sIAAAAAAAAAGOovnz8BQMDAx8HixKXfq6-QXKZeVZlSafXpCvVCUbLc1TmaLXF7iwu2sN0EwBk6s3AKwAAAA&sa=X&ei=dhR8Utf_PNKqhAev7oHoBg&ved=0CKsBEOkTMBE&biw=1184&bih=573.
wat
When I went to ebay and searched what you said, dozens of these came up.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2003-Book-THE-COMPLETE-GUIDE-TO-ANTIQUES-by-MARTIN-MILLER-/400331408695?pt=Antiquarian_Collectible&hash=item5d359c8537
Upon going to amazon, these came up and other's like it.
http://www.amazon.com/Millers-Antiques-Handbook-Price-2012-2013/dp/1845336380
Which one is it?
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That's only visual.
Exhibitions, galleries, auction houses, even just " window shopping " at respected outlets - see things first hand.
Ipcress stumbled upon the reality of dating old furniture, books will only help to ID furniture styles, they help very little when the question is, what date?
Construction details tell you what tools were used, how it was joined, what kind of nails, hardware, etc. Naturally, one has to know or learn what the dates were of the const details that were used by the guy who built a particular piece. That sort of knowledge is only acquired by examining furniture in person and reading about when certain construction practices were used and with what kind of materials.
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" stumbled "
Good grief.
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LOL @ good grief
A bit of pay back for that inferior comment! I had considered using the very american slang of "even a blind squirrel will stumble upon an acorn every now and then" but rejected it as to long & cumbersome.
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Inferior was said with a ' razz ' smiley as we've joked about it before
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Take it with a grain of salt Jacon4 !! Ipcress has to rib us occasionally,, but in a jovial manner !! :D
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as was stumble! I just didnt add an emoticon
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You gotta admit you kinda stepped into this one as the piece turned out to be english after all :)
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We may not agree on many things...but..on this we are ..100%,..methinks we,d better get our hard hats on... ;D
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I have no idea what you guys are talking about, but yeah..which book ? See my above post.
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Jalcon, we were shooting the 'ol bull in regards to the merits of american VS english furniture.
As far as books go, it really depends on what style of furniture one collects or what century. For instance, a book on early furniture would not include victorian forms so you really need to decide which style or era of furniture fashion that interests you.
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Get yourself, an antique collectors Bible..."The Millers Antique Guide,..lots on ebay...much cheapness
......
Which one? The one by Judith Miller or the one by Martin Miller?
Mmm!!...another rivet counter...just what this place needs..we,ll go with..JM...as MM...was a Czech actor... ;D
https://www.google.co.uk/search?newwindow=1&q=martin+miller+actor&stick=H4sIAAAAAAAAAGOovnz8BQMDAx8HixKXfq6-QXKZeVZlSafXpCvVCUbLc1TmaLXF7iwu2sN0EwBk6s3AKwAAAA&sa=X&ei=dhR8Utf_PNKqhAev7oHoBg&ved=0CKsBEOkTMBE&biw=1184&bih=573.
wat
When I went to ebay and searched what you said, dozens of these came up.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2003-Book-THE-COMPLETE-GUIDE-TO-ANTIQUES-by-MARTIN-MILLER-/400331408695?pt=Antiquarian_Collectible&hash=item5d359c8537
Upon going to amazon, these came up and other's like it.
http://www.amazon.com/Millers-Antiques-Handbook-Price-2012-2013/dp/1845336380
Which one is it?
Its a simple case of...eeny.meany.min ey,mo. ;D.
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Well, just to add my tuppence worth...or fuel to the fire,as some may say...when you boil it all down..."American"...furniture..shoul d be re-named..Multi-National furniture..for after all..the only true Americans were the indigenous tribes,that roamed free ...before the English,Scots, Irish,and almost every other foreigner arrived in America,...and its from them..that your,"American furniture"became what it is today...Simples.... ..and as for this table...being English...well,we don,t know from where it came,..its owner might live in the Uk..but that does,nt make the table...British.. ..shall i keep my hard hat on ;D
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You can take it off !! You are quite correct !! To simplify,, just say "Made in USA" !! ;D Sure wish I could see those words on a lot more of the items we buy !!
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american furniture RULES, everybody else DROOLS!
Actually, the only known American designed furniture that wasn't "borrowed" from others is................. ....SHAKER!
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Instead of..."Made in China"..or Vietnam,..or Taiwan,..or any of the other eastern countries,.its the same here,...but..its our own fault...as we demand..cheaper prices,...Over here we, like America had a thriving,car industry,...Motorcycle industry,etc...but,then along came the Japanese in the 60,s...with cheaper alternatives,...the same goes for the electronics,clothes...you name it...they make it....
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american furniture RULES, everybody else DROOLS!
Actually, the only known American designed furniture that wasn't "borrowed" from others is................. ....SHAKER!
"would you like to have a rethink on that statement" like i said in my original post...all your "furniture" origins came from other shores... ;D...
Shaker furniture is a distinctive style of furniture developed by the United Society of Believers in Christ's Second Appearing (aka Shakers), a religious sect founded by Jane and James Wardley. They came to America from Manchester, England in 1774 led by Mother Ann Lee. Shaker furniture is widely admired for its simplicity, innovative joinery, quality, and functionality. Shaker designs were inspired by the ascetic religious beliefs of the Society. Shakers made furniture for their own use, as well as for sale to the general public.
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I dont think the shakers made furniture until they came to America, I am not aware of any english shaker furniture, is there any?
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You are missing the point here Jacon...which brings me back to my original post on "American"furniture,...before America was colonized...There was No American furniture,..These foreigners that arrived brought with them..their tools, and more importantly, their knowledge,of making the furniture that you so like,..The Shaker,s are a prime example,..they came from England,they had this idea long before they landed on the shores of America,...for up until then..it was Wigwams & Teepees...and squating on furs...
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Look, furniture is a relatively new concept for humans. For instance, most people did not sit on chairs until the 18th century, they sat on stools, chairs were for kings and the wealthy even in england. Indeed, there are only 24 or so known american wainscot chairs from the 17th century that exist.
As for the Shakers, they came to america from england in the last quarter of the 18th century (all 6 of them)however, they did not have shaker communities in england nor build furniture there. They did not build furniture here until the 19th century and are credited with the first and only purely american form of furniture.
Good info on Shaker furniture here
http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/shak/hd_shak.htm
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What part of all of this are you not grasping Jacon,what I,m saying is,All American furniture stems from those early settlers,thats what i,m saying,I,m not saying the Shaker,s..made their furniture in England, nor any of the others either,my argument is..they went to America,..found no cohesive infrastructure,..no chairs, no nothing..that,s my point,..and as for that ridiculous statement..that nobody sat on chairs prior to the 18th century...methinks you should take a look at the Greeks, Romans, Egyptians..before uttering such a statement... ;)
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You gotta admit you kinda stepped into this one as the piece turned out to be english after all :)
I'm not convinced it's English
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Don`t think it is either Ipcress !! That's why I said that the person either isn`t in U.S or its an import !! Page 1 !!
Would still like to see the underside !!
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No, it doesnt have to be english but, it looks awfully plain to be a victorian repro import from asia that were popular back in the 60s
Any chance we could get a pic of bottom as mart suggested?
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Gawd!!...this wanting to see bottoms..is like a contageous disease..See what you,ve started Ms Underhill... ;D...
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Each time I try to attach some photos of the underneath I get and internal error message from the server
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Hmmmmm, thought i would try a reply and see what happens.......
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Sorry, don't know if this will even show up because I cannot view pages 2 and 3 of this thread!
I do believe that this is more of a mix of styles...BEAUTIFUL PIECE by the way. I would gander to say very early 1900's. Of course this i just from the pic I am seeing on Page 1. Always a hands-on inspection is the best way to go with an item in question.
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I am changing my guess! to english Edwardian C. 1900-10
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I can't get the photos to upload, keep on getting an internal server error.
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i,ve tried twice and each time its went pear shaped,..place is falling to bits...
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I am changing my guess! to english Edwardian C. 1900-10
Not a chance.
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Mid 20th century Italian import !!
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I have uploaded the JPEG files to another website showing the underneath of the octagonal table.
http://www.hiddenarts.co.uk/Test.html
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I am sticking with what I said after seeing the new pics !! Mid 20th century Italian !!
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well, i,m going with early 20th century,..and possibly from India...
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well, i,m going with early 20th century,..and possibly from India...
Not their style !!
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My original question was how to date the furniture? What draws you to these conclusions and what evidence do you have? Can you explain your process to get to your conclusion. I have have the advantage of being able to physically examine the table but not the knowledge or experience. The saw makes underneath go at 45 degrees to the wood grain and are straight and not circular saw marks. The screws holding it together are flat head screws, machine made and rusty, not hand cut. The table has been revarnished. The bottom of the legs have holes presumably for casters. The holes are off centre and would not have been used in the turning process. The wood planks used to make the top are of varying width 5 3/4, 9 1/4, 10 /3/4 and 4 1/4. The fretwork on the four legs is very similar with some slight differences but very minimal. The wood between the fretwork is black and and has not been revarnished.
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My original question was how to date the furniture? What draws you to these conclusions and what evidence do you have? Can you explain your process to get to your conclusion. I have have the advantage of being able to physically examine the table but not the knowledge or experience. The saw makes underneath go at 45 degrees to the wood grain and are straight and not circular saw marks. The screws holding it together are flat head screws, machine made and rusty, not hand cut. The table has been revarnished. The bottom of the legs have holes presumably for casters. The holes are off centre and would not have been used in the turning process. The wood planks used to make the top are of varying width 5 3/4, 9 1/4, 10 /3/4 and 4 1/4. The fretwork on the four legs is very similar with some slight differences but very minimal. The wood between the fretwork is black and and has not been revarnished.
Right. Take for example the suggestion that it is English Edwardian. That's the first decade of the 20th century approximately in antiques terms ( no need to be exact here with the coronation dates )
Browse these and see what you think.
http://www.liveauctioneers.com/search?q=edwardian+occasional+table&by_date=2013-11-10T20:57:12.133Z&sort=relevance&dtype=gallery&hasimage=true&type=complete&rows=20&addfq=country_code%3A%28%22UK%22%29 (http://www.liveauctioneers.com/search?q=edwardian+occasional+table&by_date=2013-11-10T20:57:12.133Z&sort=relevance&dtype=gallery&hasimage=true&type=complete&rows=20&addfq=country_code%3A%28%22UK%22%29)
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Looking at the pics and the info so far I agree it is from around the 1900's, not sure where it was made. Without a makers name, any other identifying marks and limited knowledge on my part it is pure guesswork and luck. I still haven't found the barcode or sell by date! I have scoured the internet for a similar table but none I have found so far have similar fretwork on the legs.
My next question is do I leave it as it is knowing it has no real value or do I strip it and restore it and remove the runs in the bad varnish job? It did not cost much and is intended to be used as a TV stand.
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My original question was how to date the furniture? What draws you to these conclusions and what evidence do you have?
The only way to date furniture for sure is to examine the piece in person, there is no other way. I am basing my guess on the pics that seem to me to be similar in style to edwardian or 1900-1910, although it could be eastlake 1870-1900.
The reason i guess the later date is because of the buttons & shelf under the top. Value would be $100 or less in the states, collectors here want american pieces, not a clue what it's worth in england. Restore it if finish is bad, it certainly would increase it's value.
https://www.google.com/search?q=edwardian+octagonal+table&safe=off&espv=210&es_sm=122&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=gSOAUrL3KcrMsQTz4oDIDA&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=1280&bih=899
Finally, that X stretcher under top, is it stained or is oxidation making wood that dark color? If oxidized, it's not mid 20th century.
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Ok, I'm going to jump in with 1920's to 30's. I'm actually leaning Canadian/ American. There lines here up North are often blurred because of the boundary disputes that where in upper Maine with Canada. I've seen a lot of tables in this area that remind me of this one. Could be a little earlier but not later when everyone one started doing the light wood in the 40's.
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Heres a similar form i saw on ebay, look at incised lines on apron and stretcher under top.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Edwardian-octagonal-side-table-spindled-gallery-turned-legs-on-castors-/190885416734?nma=true&si=djXaD3MuFPZ9EL3mIXet6eCSeHQ%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
They were trying to sell it for $300 but it didnt sell and, it's in better condition than yours.
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The entire table screams mid century to me !! Specifically the 60`s !! Everything from the capped screw holes to how the legs are turned combined with the shape !! The stretcher is a different wood and since it is pretty consistently the same color,,its likely it was stained !! Don`t think it had casters, I do think it had those tips that kept it from scratching floors !! I have seen a couple of pieces that were similarly made as far as the fretwork,,Cant remember where I saw them but it was in the process of researching something that was posted on another forum !! The way the fretwork is used gives the legs a winged look to me and since it was something different I studied it a few minutes !!
Like Jacon4 said without actually doing a hands on and seeing more that what we can with pics,,all we can do is a best guess scenario !! But I would put money on 60`s !!
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My goodness, I am having to cover my ears with this table screaming so much!! :)
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But I would put money on 60`s !!
LOL, how much money? It could very well be 60s but if it did have casters, that would suggest an earlier time, correct? Although i started with collecting victorian wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy back when, i quickly moved on to early american so not an expert on the victorian period furnishings nor english or european furniture.
In any event, decent mahogany table and whether period or no, not a lot of value either way here in the states, perfect candidate to refinish and use as a TV stand.
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Well, its auction house week ,and who knows..I might just find a table like this...for mucho cheapness...my Kindling stock is getting low,...looking back over this topic...is another prime example of too little info at the start,...had we,known about the 45deg saw cuts, machined screws..etc at the beginning,i doubt very much if this topic would have dragged on,and on,for 5 pages... ::)
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Betcha` a Coke Jacon4 !! Drinkable kind !! ;D
If we could see it in person,, we might all change our minds !! Its amazing how we can all look at the same piece of furniture and each see different things according to what our major interest is !! That's part of what MrMahoot wanted to know is how we came to that conclusion !! Since my major area of study is 20th century furniture and back to late 1800`s
I look for what relates to that period and then what is missing from it !! Many times you just have to have to go by what it feels like !! After you have looked at enough furniture,, you will start to get the same feeling for it !! But make no mistake about it,,there is no cut and dried,,yes or no,,It can frequently fool you !!
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I have nothing as of now to add here.. just wanted to see if I could make a regular post since making a thread gives me error messages
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Seems Ok for you to post gtl2p2,,You might try posting again and if it doesn`t work,, see what the error message says and let us know !! Welcome to the forum !!
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The entire table screams mid century to me !!
Yeah, i'm with you on this.
It's never Edwardian - the legs are too " complicated " - and i agree about the Italian possibility or influence.
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Then it could be American...an Italian American table maker living in Ital,then sold it to someone living in UK...plausible..? ;D
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It should be obvious it is 1960's North Pole!
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Ha !! Cute !!