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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: Vickoh on December 26, 2013, 05:07:25 PM
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Hello, I have come across this item and have no idea what it is. The top (crown shape) has lead within it which makes it very heavy. On one side it is engraved with a coat of arms and the other side lll G R. I'm not sure what the handle is made of, possibly mahogany and in total the whole thing is about 6 inches long. It would be great to find out what it is.
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Could it be a Catholic aspergil? Holy Water sprinkler?
The second pic shows an etching, which seems to have an "R" to right side. What's on the other? Could we get full pics of both etchings?
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It has lll G R which I thought could stand for George Regina lll ?? The coat of arms isn't clear though.
Thanks for your idea's I will research them.
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Something tells me that lead is not original to the piece !!
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Thanks for your reply. I have no idea if the lead is original and can't figure out why it would be there in the first place. I have taken a closer picture
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might be an up market Priest....or even a Royal one....y,know..for clubbing the pare wee fish on its nut....
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Hi thank you for your reply. That was my first thoughts about it I just wasn't sure if it was too decorative for that purpose.
Hope it's a bit more exciting than a fish batterer !! Lol
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well we know one thing..the business end is weighted,..but whether it was weighted from when it was made,or was it done later?...does it come apart...i.e. threaded,at where the wood meets the metal...my other thought was ..something to do with sealing wax...
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I think the lead looks out of place ... so possibly added at some point. The handle feels securely attached but I have no experience with antiques so cannot tell if this was added later. I have thought maybe a wax press but can't really work out how it would leave a seal mark so I'm putting that idea to one side for the moment. Your suggestions are great though. I've also thought it may be a gavel .... But can't find a similar design anywhere ??
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To my mind, the lead was probably added as an interior support when the delicate parts of the crown started to break.
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Yes maybe your right .... 1 am here so I suppose I should get some sleep. Il be sure to let you know if I discover what it is and thanks guys for your ideas xx
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KC might have an idea on this !!
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Hi! My first thought was an aspergillium as well.
But the more I have looked at it (closer up)...does it look as if the handle is original? The reason I ask..is because the top of the banner poles that they carry in ceremony looks alot like the crown section as well.
Have to say, I first thought of Wullie and a post he made a while back with a club-like item!! :)
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Are you sure that is lead?
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Hello all.
I've added a couple of closer pics.
The handle looks as if it is secured by a pin and is firmly attached. Also I'm sure it is lead.
Thanks for the replies !
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looking at these latest pics ....that lead/solder,has been added at a later date...its been done very crudely...i still don,t know what its original purpose was...but i,m sticking with what i said earlier...about it being used as a Priest,....coupled with the fact that the wooden handle would fit nicely in your palm,
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Looks like a George III tipstaff / tipstave. Very collectable. Might be a lignum vitae handle.
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Thanks Ipcress, what are your thoughts about the lead within the crown ??
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Put there to help the brass retain shape ?
Hopefully you can see the image below on one without the lead
(http://images1.bonhams.com/image?src=Images/live/2004-02/23/4141700-1966-1.jpg&width=308)
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Yes I can see the picture. That is brilliant thank you
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Ipcress you did it again! Totally agree this was used by THE TIPSTAFF and is called a TIPSTAVE after reading and seeing MANY of them!!! They were originally used by police and later courtsmen!
This would be much more collectible than an aspergillium...
Again, where did you get this? I understand the reasoning for the lead...but that would devalue the piece being authentic. AND the question is how would you get it out without ruining the piece?
This is an interesting read on one collector's take on them! It says the really old ones unscrew so the warrant for arrest could be put in them!
http://www.policeguide.com/britpol.htm (http://www.policeguide.com/britpol.htm)
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Since lead is soft and melts pretty easily I would try putting it crown down in some boiling water !! Maybe hit the thrift store for a small saucepan that you can discard afterward !!
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Guess this would qualify for the old saying to "get the lead out", huh, Mart? LOL
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Hi, I am delighted to find out what it is.
It was a Christmas gift for my husband from my mother. My step dad was in business doing house clearance/antiques etc, she knows my husband like unusual things and basically she found it in a desk, but my mum had no clue what it was.
I've told her that we have now found out what it is and she is also really pleased.
As for the value and if the lead can be removed I guess I will spend a bit of time researching if it's possible or not.
I really do appreciate everyone's input, it's been great fun!!! Thank You !!! Victoria
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At the end of that article I put on my previous post there is an email address...if it is still current I wouldn't doubt they might help you out with this BEFORE you do any lead melting. If you notice...on some of those in her article the crowns have "something" inside them as well...but doesn't look like lead!
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Guess this would qualify for the old saying to "get the lead out", huh, Mart? LOL
Indeed KC !! Although we usually are talking about a different area !!
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Yes I don't think I'll try any lead melting myself !
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Since lead is soft and melts pretty easily I would try putting it crown down in some boiling water !! Maybe hit the thrift store for a small saucepan that you can discard afterward !!
You can boil as much water as you want,but it,ll never melt lead,....not today not ever,..Boiling water.. ;D....Think about it....
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Might be able to find one much cheaper or at a library
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Book-BRITISH-POLICE-ANTIQUES-UNIFORM-TRUNCHEON-WHISTLE-TIPSTAVE-More-/161171811289?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item258696abd9 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Book-BRITISH-POLICE-ANTIQUES-UNIFORM-TRUNCHEON-WHISTLE-TIPSTAVE-More-/161171811289?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item258696abd9)
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Great. Thank you
What do you think it could be worth?
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No other marks on the brass ?
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Close up pics
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I know now that the coat of arms is London and on the other side GR iii no other markings apart from those though.
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Okay, now I am having a blast researching this.
This one (liveauctioneers) sold for $600...and it opened to reveal this "oar" (average on this site go for $1,000)
(http://p1.la-img.com/1007/25184/9224916_2_l.jpg)
http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/9224916 (http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/9224916)
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So..... I definitely need to get the lead removed safely as I can see there is something within under the lead.... That's the good news the bad news the handle doesn't unscrew I've tried but don't want to apply too much pressure in case I damage it, I would of thought it would of undone so no secrets within there unfortunately ..... I have emailed a couple of people from the links given to me on here to maybe have more info soon!!
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Vickoh,
Cool! Keep us up to date!
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I think an auction estimate of £100-150 would be about right.
There are some condition issues which you have to take note of when estimating the value of these things but which collectors often overlook when bidding !
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Oh well maybe I won't be a millionaire this time next year then lol ..... But hey ho not a bad little find in a desk draw !
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methinks that lead/solder has to come out from the crown,....if not then i feel that its value may be lessened....The metal thats been put in there is almost certainly Solder,...which has a very low melting point......but it is greater than the temp needed to boil water,which my Dear Mart,..is 100C or 212F..the melting point of Solder is between 183C...or 361F...and 216C...or 420F.....the melting point of brass is between 900C...or 1652F...and 940C or 1724F.....If you did not want to apply direct heat via a gas torch,for fear of damaging the brass...which would not happen provided the heat did not reach 900C+ then you could use an electric oven...and set the temp to 220C....and the solder will fall out....
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Great idea, I think you may be right about it being solder as it is fairly easy pick off with a small knife so I was also thinking of using a soldering iron .... May be a bit fiddlie but I can give it a go
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Looking closely at your pics...it may be a case of this solder infill is whats stopping it coming apart,..for its my way of thinking that whoever did this heated the solder in a melting pot,then poured it into the gap,..but how much was poured in..that,s the big question....but, as i,ve said in my previous post...getting it out is,nt too hard...Using a soldering iron..may be ok for what you can see, but if as i suspect..its all the way down that tube,then the oven is your best bet....
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Would that damage the handle though? It is definitely hard wood of some sort.
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I think you may be right about it being solder
I didn't think of it being solder ........ but I knew it didn't look like pure lead ... and that's why I asked.
To wit: "Lead gradually darkens with time to form a stable dark gray patina".
It was the wrong color .... and its shape and texture (roughness) would be extremely tricky to achieve when pouring melted lead into such a cavity ... because it all would have to be "poured" at the same time.
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but if as i suspect..its all the way down that tube,then the oven is your best bet....
If you are going to try to melt it out, my suggestion would be to suspend it from the handle so that it hangs vertically and then use a "heat gun" to melt the solder and it should flow out the holes. That way the handle is not subjected to the high heat, ;D ;D ;D
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I forgot about the wooden handle,...forget about the oven..back to the gas torch,....having worked with, soldering copper pipes etc,from experience a gas torch although it can reach higher than needed temps,..it will easily melt the solder without damaging the wood a small culinary gas torch would suffice,...or a gas ring on a cooker,...and as this object has a wooden handle the heat will not transfer all the way up...as the solder will be the first to melt....in the unlikely event of any tarnishing of the brass ,this can be removed later by polishing off....
Or as Cogar has pointed out a heat gun would be better as you can vary the heat,..far better than a gas torch..and as he said hold the handle with the soldered end pointing down and the solder will run out...
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Oooo of course... Good idea :D
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I would leave it alone if you plan to sell it.
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I think we will probably keep it regardless of its value ..... Unless it was in the thousands which is none starter. Having said that I doubt I will mess about with it I may follow lines to have it professionally restored ... But I think it's a keeper as I've really enjoyed finding out what it is and all the history that goes with it.
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Vickoh,
Isn't it strange how these little oddities tend to grow on us when we take the time to investigate them? I love it!
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:)
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Definitely Dogaman ..... Thanks everyone for your help xx