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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: Hilltop on July 20, 2014, 06:37:33 AM
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Thank You for reading my post. A while ago I did a house clean out and found two Gravesones in the basement. I asked the home owners about them and they said they were in the house when their parents bought it back in the 50's. They told me at one time there was a cemetary on the property over a hundred years ago before the house was built. I asked if they should stay with the house and they told me no to please remove them. One is a cross that reads Grandson and the other is about a 3 foot rounded top slab with a lamb on the top the name is Federick Schmit born June 6 1872 Died Aug, 31 1874. The dates are written in German. I did some research on the property and I could not fine and records of a cenetary ever being there. So I was thinking it might have been a family plot. As for the grandson stone how would research that. As for the 2 year old I have been to many websites and took the drive to city hall and the town hall and could find nothing. Contacting the family would be the right thing to do but I keep hitting walls. As cool as they are I really don't want these just sitting around. So I ask can I sell them and were can I sell them. I know the bay is right out. I don't even know what the value of them would be. Thank you for your help.
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There are legal ramifications but would have to check again !! Have you tried Ancestry.com or some of the other geneology sites ?? Did they know why the headstones had been removed ?? Its possible the graves were moved and new headstones were installed. I rented an old ranch house back in the late 70`s and there was a small plot in the pasture there !! One was a person that died 100 years before !! My parents were raised in the area and knew the family well !!
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Mart, Thank You for replying. Yes I did a search on Ancestry and a few other sites. I can not find any info anywhere. The owners of the home did not know anything about them. All they knew was they were there for as long as they could remember. I asked them many questions like did they ever look for the family. They said their parents tried to do some digging around after they bought the house but did not find anything, The lady told me when she was in her 20's she started looking again and then again in her 50's and could not find a thing. I did searched as hard as I could and could not find anything. I do know that some states have laws against this but when I was searching New York State I could not find any laws against it. I just want to make sure I'm right and how to sell them.
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Have you tried your county tax office ?? Often county records work much better for this type research !! Of course you would have to take a day and go read the county records !!
Your local historical society is another good resource !! Often they have already done the research for early families in an area !!
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Yes I have tried the tax records, county clerks office city and town offices and nothing.
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What are the names ?? Frederick Schmit ?? If he died in 1974 there is a record of it !! Death cert would be on record !! Is the spelling correct ??
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Did you check local Monument Dealers to see if they have a record of the sale of said?
Mart, what are those legal ramifications you spoke of?
To make sure they were not reported stolen from a cemetery, maybe?
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Okay so I ran into an old friends mother today who is a medium and I asked her if she would like to look at these. She came over and told me the stone with the lamb has a lot of energy to it and the cross has very little. I found out I had the name spelled wrong. Now back to the drawing board. Nothing on line yet.
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https://www.auctionzip.com/azforum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1260
See what this says,, it is specifically speaking about NY law in regard to selling gravestones/markers !! I couldn`t get it to load !!
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Yes I saw this too. It only talks about veterans markers only. I know it is a crime to sell anything from a veterans grave as it is Federal Property. These are not veterans and the child was only 2 years old and after war time.
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Did you check local Monument Dealers to see if they have a record of the sale of said?
Mart, what are those legal ramifications you spoke of?
To make sure they were not reported stolen from a cemetery, maybe?
That was one reason and in the case of family plots, removing the markers would leave a burial site unmarked or something to that effect !! Here family plots (I think) have to be fenced off so livestock don`t trample the site !!
Texas remember !! Some old laws are still on the books !!
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Why don't you contact these folks and get their opinion on what could be done?
https://gravestonestudies.org/welcome/contact-us (https://gravestonestudies.org/welcome/contact-us)
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Rauville Thank You I will call them first thing Tuesday.
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What is the correct spelling ?? Maybe we can find something ??
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Mart, I left the rubbings at the store I will scan them and post them here tomorrow. Maybe that will help.
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We seem to have a typo here that is mixing people up. It should be 1874 not 1974. The stones have been in the house since before 1974. Plus that would make the person 98 not two. The chances are good that there is an old local Lutheran Church that may have records as most Germans back then were Lutheran. The Lutheran churches are usually impeccable records keepers.
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Frogpatch, Good call on the typo. Yes it is 1874 and not 1974.
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The gravestonestudies site is a great one. Hope you are able to contact them.
The questions I have are:
1) Why are you wanting to sell them? Do you need the money that much?
2) Is there a local museum or historical society that could help figure this out? That this could be donated to with a tax write off?
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Frogpatch, Good call on the typo. Yes it is 1874 and not 1974.
Well. I sure didn`t catch that one !! I did think one of your posts about his being two years old was a little strange,, but you said there were two stones so I thought maybe you were talking about the other one !!
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Sorry I didn't see this sooner. Good for you for doing the right thing. The Association for Gravestone Studies (AGS) can help but it may take them a while to get back to you. You can also contact Kurt Riegle and Tina Pabst of One Stone at a Time. They are AGS trained, and they do extremely careful cleaning, resetting, restorations and "detective work". I've hired them several times to clean and restore my New York ancestors stones. Here is the contact info:
(607) 316-0117
riegelkurt@gmail.com
127 Pearl St Bainbridge, New York 13733
https://www.facebook.com/pages/One-Stone-at-a-Time/541567555903969?sk=timeline
Tell them Claire Warren sent you.
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The gravestonestudies site is a great one. Hope you are able to contact them.
The questions I have are:
1) Why are you wanting to sell them? Do you need the money that much?
2) Is there a local museum or historical society that could help figure this out? That this could be donated to with a tax write off?
No I don't need the money that much. I have talked with the historical society (I was there for hours). They were helpful but we could not find anything. I did asked them if they wanted them for their museum and they declined. They told me it was thoughtful of me but they didn't want them. I did try.
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Bravo Hilltop! Thanks for trying! :)
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I just got an email from a morbid antique place in Ontario Canada. Here is what it said.
Cabinet of Curiosities
To Me
Today at 10:31 AM
Hi Christopher, interesting find. In my experience there aren't any laws stating you can't sell a tombstone assuming they haven't actually been removed from a grave. If discovered in a house barn or field, essentially they were just signage and nothing directly tied legally to a body. Often there were misprints or damaged stones during production.
It was not uncommon in the 19th century or earlier that a family would up and move the entire clan a great distance in many cases they would dig up the family members from a family cemetary and take them with them and take the stones as well.
What you may have is someone moved from a great distance and took at least the gravemarkers with them. Or as the owners of the home said, there used to be a small graveyard on the property in which case records if there were any may have been lost.
In any case, in my "opinion" you're free and clear to sell them. The trick is finding a buyer... most people find them creepy even haunted... everyone finds them heavy. It's an acquired taste for certain.
Where are you located? Are you in New York State?
Cheers
Mark
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Would love to still see the rubbings and this has drummed up alot of interest. I know we are all looking to help out!
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Here are some pics and the scans of the rubbings of the name. I hope this helps. Thank You all for helping me out with this.
(http://i692.photobucket.com/albums/vv284/Zippo101/Stones001_zps4d5ebed4.jpg) (http://s692.photobucket.com/user/Zippo101/media/Stones001_zps4d5ebed4.jpg.html)
(http://i692.photobucket.com/albums/vv284/Zippo101/Stones002_zpsd7273a2a.jpg) (http://s692.photobucket.com/user/Zippo101/media/Stones002_zpsd7273a2a.jpg.html)
(http://i692.photobucket.com/albums/vv284/Zippo101/Stones003_zps52ee11ef.jpg) (http://s692.photobucket.com/user/Zippo101/media/Stones003_zps52ee11ef.jpg.html)
(http://i692.photobucket.com/albums/vv284/Zippo101/Rubbing1_zpsf8147f5b.jpg) (http://s692.photobucket.com/user/Zippo101/media/Rubbing1_zpsf8147f5b.jpg.html)
(http://i692.photobucket.com/albums/vv284/Zippo101/Rubbing2_zps04f50639.jpg) (http://s692.photobucket.com/user/Zippo101/media/Rubbing2_zps04f50639.jpg.html)
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What county or town were the stones found ?? I found some in NY state that changed the name spelling from Schmidt to Schmitt !! My family did the same thing,, Grandfathers name was Burkhart but the original spelling was Burkhardt !! Someone along the way changed it, dropping the German spelling !!
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A bit off topic, but I lived in Germany for a few years, and while taking a hike along the coast one day, we stated finding pieces of marble headstones...and we thought they may be part of a demolished graveyard or some such thing. But, ran into some other hikers, and this was just an area a local stone maker dumped his mistakes and such...he needed to dump, and they needed fill in a wet area, so he had permission. It was weird, yet fascinating. But I love old cemeteries, I have explored them through Europe, Southern USA, Canada, and some small funky old ones in the New England area....just love them!? But I love a lot of old things!
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What county or town were the stones found ?? I found some in NY state that changed the name spelling from Schmidt to Schmitt !! My family did the same thing,, Grandfathers name was Burkhart but the original spelling was Burkhardt !! Someone along the way changed it, dropping the German spelling !!
Mart, These are from New York, Town of Tonawanda in Erie County.
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Just curious but the rubbings were taken from the slab stone weren't they ?? The years written are 1872 and at the bottom 1871 isn`t it ?? Which one was 1874 ?? The cross ??
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Just curious but the rubbings were taken from the slab stone weren't they ?? The years written are 1872 and at the bottom 1871 isn`t it ?? Which one was 1874 ?? The cross ??
At first look at it, it looks like 1871 but it is 1874. I was hard to see at first. The Cross had a faint Grandson and no dates.
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http://genforum.genealogy.com/schmitt/messages/743.html
Oh !! Ran across this forum on the Schmitt`s of Erie county, NY !! This post says she has genealogy of Schmitts back to Germany in 1600`s !! Wouldn`t hurt to ask her about Frederich Schmitt !! Hopefully she will have some info !! From what I read there were quite a few families with that name !!
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http://genforum.genealogy.com/schmitt/messages/743.html
Oh !! Ran across this forum on the Schmitt`s of Erie county, NY !! This post says she has genealogy of Schmitts back to Germany in 1600`s !! Wouldn`t hurt to ask her about Frederich Schmitt !! Hopefully she will have some info !! From what I read there were quite a few families with that name !!
Great, Thank You for the help.
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What are the names ?? Frederick Schmit ?? If he died in 1974 there is a record of it !! Death cert would be on record !! Is the spelling correct ??
Mart born 1872 died 1874.
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Yes,, that was corrected !! I didn`t read closely enough !!
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I don't mean to be a nag, but next time please don't do a rubbing on any old marble stone. They are very fragile and this is hard on them. Methods like shaving cream and baby powder leave residues that hold moisture to the stone and accelerate wear. Next time use a mirror to shine light into the inscription, or try enhancing the photo with PhotoShop to bring out the inscription. Also try a shining a flashlight onto the surface at night. :)
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You are right Tales !! But these were in the basement of a house,,not on a grave !! They were given to him !! He was trying to find the family but haven`t heard if he succeeded !!