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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: rustyattic on November 26, 2014, 08:38:00 PM
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Is there anything more specific then sconce or wall chandelier? Also what style is it?
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Reminds me of the 70`s California Mission style sconces !! Went with all the chunky dark furniture of the era !!
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It is really hard to tell even though the pictures are pretty clear but it appears to me that these are not wired and sold in the US. UL would never list fixtures that have wiring exposed to the wall like that. In the US there would have to be a plate that would cover a box in the wall.There appears to be a switch wired into the fixtures which is also not to code. That is another indication that these are wired after production. My feeling is that they are either candle sconces that were wired for lamps or electric fixtures that are from overseas somewhere. As far as age goes it is hard to say. The wiring looks newer but the body could be as old as the 1930s. I see that the switch is made by Leviton, a US company, which makes me think that these are sconces that were converted to fixtures professionally. I would like to be able to see them closer. If you use them keep the wattage low, like 7 watts per lamp, to be safe. Very nice pieces.
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Now I hate to be playing the role of Devil’s Advocate on this, but ……
UL (Underwriters Laboratories') certification is not mandatory for all saleable goods. But, on the contrary, the per say “mandatory restriction” that a purchased item must be UL certified and/or have a UL Label attached is determined by the purchaser of said items. For example, iffen you want to sell your applicable “item(s)” to a government entity, a distributor, a wholesaler or a retailer of similar products …..or as a “vendor item” to another manufacturer, you best get it UL certified before you even offer it for sale. No UL certification makes the item a potential “liability problem” that everyone but the “end user” wants to avoid. And ps, UL certification costs a “ton of money”…. which the “little guy” can’t afford.
Anyway, all of the above was simply “justification” for me tending to think that the items in question were originally electrified and were made in the US. Also, to me, the positioning of the welded “hollow” square tubing infers/indicates original electrification.
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I have seen many from the mid century era without a back plate !!
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I think it is possible they are a modern reproduction. The place I work for sells modern reproductions and these kind of strike me that way. Are they heavy or somewhat light?
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I think it is possible they are a modern reproduction. The place I work for sells modern reproductions and these kind of strike me that way. Are they heavy or somewhat light?
If I were to venture a guess ... I would say they were made of brass .... simply because of the "square" tubing and what looks to be "soldered" joints that connect the pices together.
Reference: https://www.etsy.com/listing/193594867/5-square-oval-tubes-matt-black-color?ref=market (https://www.etsy.com/listing/193594867/5-square-oval-tubes-matt-black-color?ref=market)
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I'm not seeing any clear way they were meant to be attached to the wall? I may just be missing it. It does seem like a back plate is missing.
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I'm not seeing any clear way they were meant to be attached to the wall? I may just be missing it. It does seem like a back plate is missing.
In the 3rd pic, look near the top, in between the first 2 sockets There's a circular piece for mounting. I think they're heavy. The sockets are porcelain, I don't know if that helps.
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Sockets look to be very important to the dating of the sconces. Here is a link that help date the sockets. http://www.antiquesockets.com/socket-dating.html
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Nice site icedgold10!
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Something about these screams "Made in Mexico" to me !!
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Something about these screams "Made in Mexico" to me !!
I believe they may be screaming made in India. At least that is where our reproductions are made. The reason they are screaming newer is the shape of the petals. Too pointy to be early and they point more straight up not wide and flatter. This design was very popular in the 70's. I had a pair of sconces that were like that design.
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I think you are right !! 70`s is what I said in my first post !!
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Cogar. You are correct in saying that it is no law preventing the sale of fixtures that are not UL listed. (not certified) However any fixtures sold in the US for installation must be up the the standard of the NEC to pass inspection. These clearly are not. It is illegal to install a fixture without an electrical box unless it is listed as a portable lighting device. A portable lighting device would have a cord. plug and switch as well as a way to mount it. To mount these properly a backplate would need to be installed with the right hardware to attach it to the electrical box in the wall or surface mounted with raceway. That way any overload or short causing fire would be contained within the box. Back in the 20s these would have been acceptable as was taking all the power from a single ceiling fixture. My opinion is that they are European.
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Frogpatch are you talking about city code ?? Where I am you have no inspection, no code and pretty much anything goes as long as it works !!
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I am referring to the National Electrical Code. All fixtures must comply with the NEC and be installed in compliance. No American Mfr. would make a fixture that could not be installed. Did anyone ask what size the sockets were? European fixtures have a lamp with a base larger than candelabra and smaller than intermediate. French and German are different from one another.
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I'll get the size and hopefully name of the socket when I get in tomorrow.
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Frogpatch are you talking about city code ?? Where I am you have no inspection, no code and pretty much anything goes as long as it works !!
Better add,,except for new construction where a mortgage company is involved !! Then it has to be according to code for insurance to cover it !!
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Here in NJ even an apartment, in most municipalities, gets inspected before a new renter can move in. A new CO is required for each tenant. Any new construction or renovation requires a permit and inspection also. Even a fence. I think there may be different rules in rural areas though. Yes, we actually have a lot of rural areas here.
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Cogar. You are correct in saying that ………
Frogpatch, that is why I pre-apologized to you for being the Devil’s Advocate. I knew a little bit about it due to my 20 years in computer engineering and manufacturing and one of my bestest beer drinking friends n’ co-worker was the UL/CSI (Canadian) compliant Electrical Engineer for all of our products. My knowledge of 110/220 wiring, instillations, codes, rules, etc., for private residences is not “expert” class but fair enough to “pass inspection” in many, but not all,, locales. In some places, local statutes stipulate that all electrical work must be done by a card-carrying IBEW member.
Now I probably should refrain from any more critiquing on this subject, but, I am an Educator, via Degree, and thus a compulsion to prevent a misunderstanding of correctly stated information and/or to correct misinformation to prevent it from being propagated to unsuspecting individuals.
Thus said, …. the key phrase in your NEC statement was “to pass inspection” and iffen your power is “ON”, meaning already inspected, whatever you do is your problem if something goes wrong. (Which might negate your insurance coverage.)
Now whether one does their electrical work themselves, or hires it done, it should be done “to Code” simply for safety reasons.
And the “illegality” associated with the non-compliance of/with “the Code” is a sticky-wicky one depending on whether it is residential or commercial property and/or you are the owner or the contractor/licensed electrician that did or is doing the work.
Cheers
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Being in the lighting industry for 30 years I have dealt with contractors, inspectors, manufacturers and engineers. All of these people were adamant about compliance with code and safety. The fixtures we are talking about would never come out of a US manufacturer with wiring like that anytime in past 60 years. Earlier anything was possible but they look European to me. I have seen a few old fixtures during my forty plus years as a dealer of vintage stuff. The socket size would be a clue unless they were made for a US Market. They could very well be Mexican also.
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And ps: HA, ;D ;D have you read the compliance “Code” associated with the “clean-up” in the event that you “break” one of those new energy-saving, mercury laden, “green” fluorescent light bulbs?
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The fixtures we are talking about would never come out of a US manufacturer with wiring like that anytime in past 60 years.
Why of course NOT, at least not in the past 40 years. Don't push the "envelope" back too far because the "rules" have undergone considerable change since post-1970.
Me pretty sure, via the 3rd picture, that it was recently re-wired ... via use of what looks to be 22 ga stranded, "white" insulated twisted-pair wire and plastic electrical tape to hold the wire in place.
Just my opinion, mind you, from what I think I see in the picture. ::)
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I looked more closely at them today and found a "Made Italy" mark and got a couple more pics.
Here's a pic of the switch (sorry may camera flash makes it hard to see.)
Next is the socket after I took out the porcelain adapter. The socket is a little more then an inch in diameter. The adapter is marked Leviton 10029 and the back says 125V
The last 2 show more of the wiring and the small box that reads:CAT 579
The plug has UL B&9 marked on it. All the metal is iron.
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The UL would likely be Underwriters Laboratories so they were likely made for a US market !!
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The fixture itself was most probably “imported” here to the US ….. and the electrical components were “installed” by the importer. Big cost savings on Import Duties by doing it that way.
And with the retail sales of a per se …. “re-manufactured” item …. is when the “illegality” associated with the non-compliance of/with “the Code” …. really gets sticky-wicky.
Especially when it is a very low volume sales item.
If you like it, ...... put some lightbulbs in it and hang it on the wall.
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I don't recall anyone saying it had a cord and plug on it. Did I miss that? That would make it a portable lamp not a fixture.
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I don't recall anyone saying it had a cord and plug on it. Did I miss that? That would make it a portable lamp not a fixture.
Me too !! What plug ?? I assumed it was hard wired into the wall !!
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I sorry, didn’t think that was a pondering anyone was concerned with, ….. soooooooo … will oblige all those curious minds ….
Iffen you look at 1st Post, top of 3rd picture you will see an attached “ring” for hanging the fixture on a nail or whatever. Hanging fixtures are not (normally) wired directly into a junction box
It was not made for a per se “wall mounting” because there are no screw holes in the fixture …. nor a mounting “bracket” on the back of the fixture.
Next look at the newly uploaded 3rd picture on page 2, Post #24, just above this post.
Look at the bottom left, at the inside edge of the “V” brace and you will see, … what I am pretty sure is, ….. the “taped-up” end of the “power” cord that the per se …. lamp cord (wire) and plug (socket) were cut off from.
So now I see that I previously shudda said ….. attach a new lamp cord (wire) and plug, .... and then check it out with a Volt meter to make sure there is no "shorts" and everything works.
A "cut-off" lamp cord (wire) more often than not infers a "problem" ..... (but nothing that can't be easily fixed). If the switch is bad you can buy a replacement at an electronics or auto parts store. It doesn't have to be an identical one, .... just so it fits through the "hole" in the fixture. A toggle, a push on/off or a twister will work.
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Sure is ,, I didn`t look close enough !!