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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: Bradley on May 03, 2015, 09:20:57 PM
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Age or anything else about this brass "hog scraper" candleholder? I like the primitive look.
8.25 inches high and 6 inches across the base, rim to rim. Ink pen shown for scale. That flange at the top appears fairly thick for a piece of sheet metal. I cannot find a cut or seam, so could the shaft have been formed from a single casting? One photo shows a welding repair on a crack.
I would mostly like to know WHEN it was made, but "where" and "how" would be nice to know too.
Many Thanks.
Bradley
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This one doesn't look that old! I am betting from the 1980's to 90's.
We had a whole lot of this same type/style come into Texas during that time. Most were from India and China. This sure looks a whole lot like those.
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Interesting. I have been shopping it around a bit, and that's the first time anyone has told me it might be that recent. In truth, I have not had anyone confidently narrow it down to a decade yet, but usually I get told that the recent ones would have been made of a piece of sheet metal rolled and pinched together at a clearly visible seam going from the bottom to the top of the shaft, and there would be a screw visible on the bottom that would attach the shaft to the base. Mine lacks those modern features. Also, there are no concentric rings in the base to indicate that it was spun on a machine. In other words, this doesn't seem to be machined in any way.
I am not arguing, merely passing on what I have been told so far. I ask for LOTS of opinions. Everyone knows something of value, I have found. Can you post a link for those ones from China and India that look like mine? Maybe they are still using primitive fabrication methods after all.
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Don't have pictures specifically of those that I have seen during that time...but here is one similar to yours:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Brass-candle-stick-holder-/231551432678?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35e98a77e6 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Brass-candle-stick-holder-/231551432678?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35e98a77e6)
and here
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Brass-Candle-Stick-8-Made-in-Spain-/231543536243?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35e911fa73 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Brass-Candle-Stick-8-Made-in-Spain-/231543536243?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35e911fa73)
and here
http://www.ebay.com/itm/OLD-BRASS-ADJUSTABLE-CANDLE-STICK-/141634166775?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20fa0ddff7&nma=true&si=DOluG0YRub6vpCdc4zoUhfAljKs%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/OLD-BRASS-ADJUSTABLE-CANDLE-STICK-/141634166775?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20fa0ddff7&nma=true&si=DOluG0YRub6vpCdc4zoUhfAljKs%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557)
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Thanks. No ages, assumed or otherwise, on either one of them though. The first one looks most like mine, but they did not show the bottom. Would like to have seen it because I was told on another site that screws and threaded bolts started being used widely in manufacturing in the late 1800s, so I always look there.
I would absolutely agree that the second one looks recent because (though the photos are fuzzy) I think I am seeing a screw or bolt on the bottom of that one. That would make sense because it has a handle that looks like it would be set onto a bolt that fastens the shaft and baseplate together. On the other hand, I think mine looks more primitive than either one of those. Too bad the sellers could not post more info on their ages.
Here is one that looks a bit more like mine, but the seller here does not list an age either, merely the description "Antique OLD Primitive Rustic Brass Hogscraper Push UP Candlestick Candle Holder"
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-AAFA-Primitive-Rustic-Brass-Hogscraper-Push-UP-Candlestick-Candle-Holder-/141651855716?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20fb1bc964
Thanks again.
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I'm trying to look at yours to see the "age" on it. What exactly am I seeing on the bottom? Is that a wear area where "a silver/metallic color" is showing through the "gold/brass" ?
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Manufacturing wise, it is a lot easier, simpler and cheaper to solder 2 pieces of brass together than it is to bolt them together, ….. especially iffen the bolt or the nut has to be inserted down the length of that brass tube.
It looks to me to be “spin” formed via a brass tube and flat oval …. and then the top and base soldered together.
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Cogar,
It would make sense that it was spun at some point to get the circular tube, base and lip shapes. But when I think of recently-made objects that were "spun" on a wheel as part of an automated factory process, here is a photo of what I mean. This is a different item (from another antiques site I go to occasionally), but you can see the concentric circles in the metal from where it was turned on a wheel and ground. The base on mine looks to have some very mild pitting, as though the original piece of metal came out of a sand mold and was then formed into a circle.
I can't see soldering marks from where the base, tube and lip join each other, but that doesn't mean it wasn't soldered, does it? Maybe the person doing it had a fine touch.
KC,
There seems to have been some sort of coating on the brass which wore away over time. I don't know why anyone would coat brass (other than plating it with a more valuable metal like silver or gold), but I have seen it done. I have some brass pieces which look nearly like solid gold after a good polishing. I assume you are not referring to the welding repair job done on the bottom. It was like that when I bought it, but I don't mind that "been around the block" look. I think it adds character.
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testing
I can't see soldering marks from where the base, tube and lip join each other, but that doesn't mean it wasn't soldered, does it? Maybe the person doing it had a fine touch.
Bradley,
Not all soldering jobs look as rude n’ crude as the “bubblegum” fix on the bottom of your candleholder.
Solder comes in spools from wee small up to 1/8” in diameter or larger. The actual process of soldering is often called “sweating”. How this works is, solder “flux” is applied between the 2 pieces to be soldered and the 2 pieces are heated up extra “hot” before the solder is applied.
The tippy end of the solder “thread” is placed against the “crack” or joint where the 2 pieces meet, …. the solder melts …. and is “sucked” right in and “glues” the 2 pieces together. And iffen ya know what you are doing ya don’t have “bubblegum” blobs all around the exterior.
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A brass vase spun by hand. Mounted to the lathe spindle is the mandrel for the body of the vase; a shell sits on the "T" rest. The foreground shows the mandrel for the base. Behind the finished vase are the spinning tools used to shape the metal.
Read more @ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_spinning
I tried 6 times but it wouldn't let me post the .jpg for the picture.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b4/Metal_spinning_brass_vase.jpg
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Cogar is right !! That coating is what makes this piece modern rather than older,, most modern (20th century) brass was coated with a clear lacquer to prevent the metal from tarnishing !! Some imported items are not coated !!
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Agree with cogar and Mart. The coating was put on the items so they would look "pristine" to buyers and not discolor in transit, while on sale and after purchase.
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If I haven't bored you with brass candlesticks yet, I have another one. I could not resist this one because the vendor at an antique/consignment shop offered it for only $5. Funny thing is I thought this smaller one looked more recent because the one I posted above seems sturdier and more primitive. Yet here is what someone posted on another antiques assessment site. Not trying to pit y'all in a cockfight of antiques assessors, but I am curious to see if any of you agree with the assessment of this smaller item.
I first thought that the vertical column was lathe spun, except other views show that it is quite thick walled and the top flange is very thick. This leads me to believe that the vertical column is a casting. This piece was manufactured by low technology processes and could have been made in a one man shop. The highest tech equipment needed would have been a casting furnace, pouring ladle, mold making gear, and a supply of brass.
Height is 4.5 inches. Base is 5 inches across.
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This one looks a lot like one I posted here a couple years ago. It turned out to be made in the 1830's although I had some conflicting answers here. Nut and bolts have been used for a lot longer than the late 1800s. If they could make guns they could make bolts. I will see if I can find the pictures.
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WOW. Thanks! If this is early 19th century then I think it is apropos to quote the late, great Joan Rivers: "Never be afraid to laugh at yourself, after all, you could be missing out on the joke of the century." I never would have suspected it to be that old. I got it because it was a bargain. It is very light and thin compared to the first one I posted in this thread.
What other features about it point to it being that old?
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Here is the link to the one someone was selling. The drip pan is rectangular but the construction looks similar. Someone polished this one. Don't do that.
http://www.antiques.com/classified/13110/LARGE-ANTIQUE-BRASS-PUSH-UP-CHAMBER-CANDLESTICK
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Here is mine.
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Very nice. Too late about the "don't polish" advice, I'm afraid. But then, I am not collecting to re-sell. (I'll just take something else to a Goodwill store until my apartment makes its transition to a full-blown living museum. LOL.) I am a tour guide in the Historic District of Savannah and I love my work. I collect these old items for the PRIVILEGE (caps, because I really mean it) of holding history in my hands. Additionally, there is the thrill of the treasure hunt in the consignment shops that I frequent, though I obviously get fooled once in a while, if the consensus on the first one I posted here is spot on.
The one you posted that is selling for $125 has some differences, of course, but the similarities are pretty interesting. The shaft on the one for sale leans slightly toward the handle, as does mine, and the elevator knobs face the same direction -- to the right of the handle/ring. Even the metal washer on the bottom appears to be the same size in each.
Thanks again!
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No clear coat on that 2nd one !! Very nice !!
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Thanks. Still laughing about the fact that the one I thought was tinny and cheap turns out to be the genuine article while the heavy, cumbersome one is (GASP!) "repro."
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I like the passion you display for what you do. I hope to visit Savannah one day. I am a big supporter of Goodwill and other thrift stores myself along with my wife. I do get a good buy once in a while in the stores but people probably get better buys from what I donate. I do better at flea markets and yard sales here in NJ. The candlestick that I found was actually at a church rummage sale in Clearwater Florida. I thought nothing much of it until I started delving.
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It's a wonderful city, and if you are history buff you will especially like it. I go to Goodwill with the things I that I do not need and that are still useful. I do my antique hunting at local antique/consignment shops because of the potential for great finds at bargain prices but I have only been doing for about a year and half, so I have a lot to learn.
I get lucky once in a while. Here is another one of my $5 finds, before and after polishing. I bought this copper plate (about 9 inches across) with the intention of eating from it, which is why I cleaned it. But when I removed the patina, it was so beautiful I couldn't bear to do that. I actually screamed the f-bomb in that shop when I saw the price tag. As in "Only $5? Are you f--king serious???" The cashier laughed and said "I didn't think you could turn that down."
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Save your polishing urge for silver. Lock up copper polish.
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........... except other views show that it is quite thick walled and the top flange is very thick. This leads me to believe that the vertical column is a casting.
Thick walled items are usually always "cast brass".
And the handle on the pictured one is cast brass.
So, iffen you are pouring "brass", .... pour all the parts at the same time.
In actuality, "antique" brass casting items were "cheap" to produce compared to 20th and 21st Century brass casting items.
There was an abundance of "mold making" experts in the 19th Century because most everything was made via pouring melted iron into "cast iron" molds. ;D
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I would NEVER have guessed that the better made candlestick would be the newer one, though I still like the older one for its history. I suppose I believed a bit too much in that cliché "They don't make 'em like they used to" which is usually applied to mean that the older stuff was of a higher quality. In many cases this is true, or those older items would not still be around and still useful. I am not saying that is always the case! I wouldn't want to fly around the world in an antique airplane, but I would certainly rather have a sturdy old Empire Revival desk (if I could afford it) on which to sit my computer than any desk I could find at Target or Walmart.
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Don`t know where you are located but Empire Revival is relatively cheap in most areas !!
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Isn't this forum interesting Bradley? That is what I love about it - always something new to learn from the collective of people's experiences/expertises and OF COURSE, the school of hard knocks acquired perspectives!
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It certainly is. It's more entertaining and informative than most television too. lol
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I'm chiming in late here. I have three of these. What you have is called a chamberstick. Hogscrapers don't have a pan. Yours looks quite old, I've got two similar and one has a patent date of 1853 on it. I think the camera flash is making the metal look newer than it is in real life. Here are a couple of helpful articles. See the info about dating the piece by the nut on the underside.
http://bluedogantiques.blogspot.com/2010/01/hog-scraper-candlesticks.html (http://bluedogantiques.blogspot.com/2010/01/hog-scraper-candlesticks.html)
http://www.peggymcclard.com/aab%20Lighting%20Hogscraper%20Bill%204469.htm (http://www.peggymcclard.com/aab%20Lighting%20Hogscraper%20Bill%204469.htm)
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Thanks for chiming in. I presume you are saying the shorter one appears oldest? The top one (with ring) is just over 4 inches tall. Bottom one (with pen, for scale) is just over 8 inches
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So I collect handworked brass -- and opinions. Since I don't sense any boredom (yet) on this thread, how about these two? They are each about 4 inches high and the weights in the bottom appear solid iron -- very attractive to magnets, which I carry with me. On one site on which I posted, they were assessed at 1850s to 1910. On another, someone said the dreaded words "late twentieth century."
The person saying they looked older said this. "Hand hammering is a somewhat time consuming and laborious task and often you can find a gap or overlapping of an indentation that shows it is not machine made ( I carry a pair of dividers and a 6” metal ruler when I am ‘ antique shopping ‘ so I can check for such indications ) . If they are hand hammered I would estimate ( from the photos ) that they date from 1850 to 1910 "
Even the person disagreeing with that assessment said they appeared hand-hammered, but bemoaned that using the words "Someone has taken a pair of brass, turned or molded candle sticks that were perfectly fine, and made the hammer marks all around to imitate hammered metal"
Both these posts were on different sites, so the two assessors never even saw each other's words. Who was right?
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OK !! From what I see,, the "hammer" marks on these were for purely decorative purposes,,not done to create the piece !! They are way too even and perfectly formed !! My bet is that they were cast this way and not done by hand !! It appears to have been stretched where it meets the main part !! May have been done in three pieces,, base, column and top, could not see well enough to tell!! I think made after 1900 !! Probably first quarter !!
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I agree with Mart, but I feel they are later and possibly made off shore. It is so hard to tell with this stuff. These are not consistent with anything I have seen made in the US except for small independent craft studios. Very difficult to say for sure. I am not an expert, just someone who has been doing what you do for 40 plus years.
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Thanks, both of you. I would be quite happy to think that they are early 1900s which, incidentally, is what the sales tag indicated. But one cannot always believe the sales tag, so that is why I come forums like this.
Mart, I have a particularly sentimental reason to like your assessment of "first quarter of the 1900s," though I want the truth, whatever it may be. My grandparents, long since deceased, were all born in the first quarter of the 20th century. There isn't a day that goes by that I do not think of them, but I value things from the formative days of their youth and young adulthood, long before I was around. (I like older things too of course) My maternal grandfather was a steel worker in Pittsburgh during the Great Depression and WWII. His wife, my grandmother, was the kindest, most compassionate soul I have ever met, a sort of Protestant ascended master, if such a title existed. What a perfect match! One of those little hammered candlesticks sits in front of a photo of them from the late 1970s, happy and smiling and posing with some other relatives. There's a nice bit of symbolism involved in having a hand worked metal item (even if it is brass) in front of the photo of a steel worker.
Again, thanks for the input.
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Thats a very nice way to look at the items you love and collect !! My parents were also from that era although country people !! So I gravitate to all things country and country inspired !! Thats why all things do not have to be worth money to be valuable !! Its the thought that they evoke that counts !!
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Hi, I just want to add that I would have no problem with dating your first (the tall one) candlestick also to the 19th century, to the second half of it. I can see quite some wear on the pictures. Here are some comparable examples, dated around 1870: http://www.meintzinger.de/AiF/G76.HTM , http://www.meintzinger.de/AiF/A34088O.HTM . You can find them under number 34088. In Europe you can still find lots of these, they are not very rare.
Mat
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Thanks Matt! The items in the links are identical to mine, down to the decorative band near the top, so if the dates are correct on your links, I guess the question of age on mine is still open. One of the arguments for the large one being late 20th century is that it has a coat of lacquer on it. But can't you lacquer an old item too? Like painting a 100 year old house?
Also, mine does not have a bolt or screw in the bottom, and in the words of one of the people posting in this thread Manufacturing wise, it is a lot easier, simpler and cheaper to solder 2 pieces of brass together than it is to bolt them together, ….. especially if the bolt or the nut has to be inserted down the length of that brass tube."
Whatever the age of mine, it shows quite a bit of wear and I like the heavy construction.
I would not mind searching non-English sites, if I can get into them. Online translators are easy to find.
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No Bradley,, you can not re-lacquer an old item !!~ Older items were not lacquered to begin with and that would stick out like a sore thumb !! !! They were used, polished and cared for by someones ancestors !! This is one thing many people and I will disagree on !! Silver and brass were meant to be used which meant they were polished regularly !! Do you think your ancestors would have served tea from a nasty, tarnished, silver teapot ?? Of course not !! Its only people today that think the tarnish looks better than a nicely cleaned and cared for piece of silver or brass !! Brass was more utilitarian in use than silver but the same applies !! You would not have let your guests see a piece of brass in your house in that condition !! They would have taken pride in having everything clean and polished !! Only in recent years were items lacquered so polishing was unnecessary !! The only exception would be items of historical importance !! Those you never touch !!
OK !! Got sidetracked !! I will put my soapbox away !!
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You are putting words in my mouth, Mart. Never even once did I use the word "re-lacquer" or put forth the idea of "re-lacquering" -- lacquering something AGAIN. Those are your words. You have an argument going on here with imaginary opposition. It's alright, Mart. We all have our tequila nights now and then. LOL
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LOL !! Got me didn`t cha` !! Thats right,,you didn`t say re-lacquer,, you said "can`t you lacquer an old item too" but the same answer applies,,that would stick out like a sore thumb !! Stop and think about it,, someone has a 19th century pair of candlesticks,, they didn`t have spray cans till modern times,,you can`t brush that stuff on metal properly !! Could send them back to the factory I guess !! And why would anyone even think about it ??
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Now Bradley, me thinks you got a little p-faced and pierty there.
You asked Mart a question … and she answered it.
The appraised age of your item ….. is the appraised age of your item and you will just have to live with it …. or try another forum to see iffen you can get the appraised age that you want.
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Hi again,
mart, as far as I can see laquered brass existed in the 19th century, so I would not see that as a proof that the candlestick is new. Here are random examples of 19th c lacquered brass: http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/furniture-lighting/a-pair-of-lacquered-brass-chandeliers-probably-french-5551535-details.aspx ; http://www.antiquetelescopes.org/19thc.html
Mat
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I really am not emotionally invested one way or another in the age of this item. But I will blame myself for not making my question clearer so -- deep breath -- let me try again. Here is what I meant:
Isn't it possible that someone here in more recent times (let's say the 1970s, for example) might take an old item, (let's say from the late 19th century), clean in up and put lacquer on it (FOR THE FIRST TIME in the 1970s) because that what was being done at the time? It would not make any sense to me either, but that was the trend in the 1970s or thereabouts, right? That was how I intended my question to be taken.
And I want to repeat that I am not invested in having this one item be appraised as old. I want the truth no matter what it is, but at this point, we have a divergent opinion here and I was trying to reconcile the two. Call it a bridge-building effort that went awry. I guess that's why I am not in construction. LOL
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I will chime in on your question! Yes it is possible that someone could but very unlikely that someone would invest that much time into such a recent item.
Now me, on the other hand....we HAVE DONE JUST THAT! (You can hate me Mart.) BUT it was to the large kick plates on our double front doors. They are antique brass and the hubs likes them shiny whilst I like them aged. So, to make him happy we cleaned them up real well and then I lacquered them so that it would result in less maintenance. However, that was years ago and as I just went and observed - they need to be redone. So, now the hassle of removing worn lacquer (wow - this just made my day - NOT).
Now, if I had some pieces (decorative use only) that were just for "looks" and not of quality/value and I wanted that shiny look...and they were sitting up on 13' shelves that I don't care to scale often...yes I could do it. However, it does take some work to get that "look" that new pieces have (appearing that they haven't been lacquered). Awful lot of trouble for a small object.
So, yes someone like me could. But I have enough things to do (like kickplates on the front door - arggggghhhh).
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LOL !! Well, at least we got a conversation started ,,didn`t we !! The Chinese were using a form of lacquer way before we did !! After 1850 or so many high end items were lacquered just typically not utilitarian objects !! I can count on one hand the times I have seen things that were done this way !! And that is in the last 50 years or so that I have been looking at and dealing with antiques !! I have a shelf full of brass from all over the world( no thanks to hubby) that I have to polish ocassionally (or not if I can get out of it) !! It is really not something I look forward to !! And not a single one of them is lacquered,,darn it !!
As to your 1970`s theory,, if it had been lacquered at that time it would not have worn off as much as it did by now !! In other words the coating would have still been over the areas of normal wear to some degree and it wasn`t !!
And if it had followed the style trends of the 70`s I can almost guarantee it would have been antiqued brass !! Because people were antiquing everything !! I said once if their kids were still long enough they would antique them !! Do not think I ever gave my idea of a timeline for it !! I think the first one you posted was made around 1900 !!
KC,, ;D,,kick plates are a matter of taste !! LOL,,, Tell Hubs I think they should be shiny too !!
Thats what I have been trying to say,,why,,logically would anyone do that ?? Makes no sense !!
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Glad we got all cleared up. I also have to confess to a peculiar character trait that comes with having spent several years as a newspaper reporter. (I was a journalist in the Army 1992-97 and reporter for a large chain of small weeklies in south Florida for three years before that.)
Two edicts in any newsroom were "NEVER one-source a story" and "Always get a second opinion." That makes journalists (or in my case, an ex journalist) the sort of individuals who can whole-heartedly agree with you on a subject -- and then confront you with a conflicting opinion anyway, just to see where the discussion goes. It can be an annoying trait, and I'm afraid it stuck with me. A friend of mine saw me doing that in a discussion at a local watering hole one night and shook his head and commented "Now I know why you don't have a girlfriend." LMFAO.
Again, thanks for all the info -- and the various points of view!
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This has been a fun thread !!