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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: ghopper1924 on October 05, 2015, 02:23:08 PM
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Hello helpful people:
Another item to test your knowledge!
This is a Staffordshire deep blue commemorative dish, about 2.25 inches deep. The center of the dish shows early 19th century boats on a river or lake with some castellated fortifications and a house on hills in the background. I regret that I don't recognize them. To the left is an allegorical blindfolded female figure titled "America, and" with, on the right, an allegorical figure of a woman in a conical hat with 3 branches at the top titled "Independence." To the left of "America" is a cameo rendering of George Washington, to the right of "Independence" is what looks like a hat on top of a tall stick; "Liberty" is written on the hat.
The sailboats and fortifications are surrounded with flowers and leaves that look to be ca. 1840-50 in style. Around the rim of the dish are the 15 states rendered as if they are printed on fabric. For example, due to "folds" Maryland looks like "Maland" and Rhode Island looks like "RhoIsland." I know that Kentucky, the 15th state, was admitted in 1792. However, due to the foliage and clothing, I think it's early 19th century at the earliest.
OK, we're almost there. The long sides, underneath the lip of the dish, show the house featured on the center of the obverse, flanked by the allegorical figures as well as flowers and what look like peaches. The underside/reverse shows swirls in an oval pattern with the circular mark reading "Branded Staffordshire Cl" with the rest of the lettering lost. There is a crown within the circular lettering.
So it APPEARS to be a Staffordshire deep blue commemorative dish. I'd say it's around 1825, but it could be later.
Can you provide a value and affirmation of the date?
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Doesn't look too old and unlikely to be British. Maybe a US company making them ? Worse case is a fake of some description. That style crown on the mark is not something you'd see on 19th century pottery
- I'm on my iPad though so will check on the laptop later !
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Oh, and the "Cl" in the mark may stand for "Clews."
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Look again at the mark Ghopper,, that should be the pattern name !! Instead of Cl,, could it be Ol as in Old ?? Can`t read the other word !!
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Definitely Cl and pretty sure it's an "e" next.
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http://www.thepotteries.org/mark/a/adams.html
Ignore that last post Ghopper,, the second word is "warranted" !! Similar to the above !! Looking again I think it is a "CL" !! Back to the search !!
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Here it is at Winterthur. Looks like Clews, Staffordshire, ca. 1830.
http://museumcollection.winterthur.org/single-record.php?resultsperpage=40&view=gallery&srchtype=advanced&hasImage=&ObjObjectName=&CreOrigin=&Earliest=&Latest=&CreCreatorLocal_tab=Ralph%20and%20James%20Clews%20factory&materialsearch=&ObjObjectID=&ObjCategory=&DesMaterial_tab=&DesTechnique_tab=&AccCreditLineLocal=&CreMarkSignature=&recid=1958.1837&srchfld=&srchtxt=&id=edf2&rownum=1&version=100&src=results-imagelink-only#.VhMR6MsrmbA
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But modern.
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Matched it to the Clews Warranted mark and I think you are right Ghopper !! This is the type of earthenware they made 1818-1834 !!
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It's modern, Mart. Certain things just don't look right and there's an article on it here
http://www.oldandsold.com/articles01/article703-2.shtml
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https://www.bidsquare.com/l/793/historical-blue-transfer-decorated-platter
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Thanks for the help Ipcress and Mart.
I phoned MsGhopper about this, since it's from her family. She said that it's been in her family since at least the early 20th century - maybe longer - and that she remembers it as a child. Let's say that's some decades ago...:)
Maybe the flash makes the background appear too white?
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Have you seen the spelling of Maryland ?
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Yes, I mentioned it in my first post. It matches the one in the Skinner auction a few posts above this one. The Winthertur plate also has misspellings, although they are different states.
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Sorry, not for me. And I don't like the mark.
There's also too many of these for sale online at lowish prices. Clews didn't produce many of these.
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https://www.skinnerinc.com/auctions/2524B/lots/793
Another. Check out the spelling on Maryland :)
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Showed it to a couple of people and they agree it's modern. Nobody has seen that type of base on a Clews platter or meat plate before.
The auctions your linking to seem to all be in the US. Also, folds did occur but you can generally see the fold close by in the pattern.
Compare it to the one in the wiki pages.
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He made a lot of these and not a lot of value. Probably less than100 dollars
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Ghopper :
Email Norman Wolfe at floboo@pacificrim.net
He did an article on Clews in an American collectors weekly. Maybe he can shed some light on why these don't look like the British ones. That deep ridge swirl base is horrid, looks like there's some paste or paint in the middle and the mark - I could understand why one edge might not be clear but not opposite sides.
Maybe there was a batch made for the American market and some weren't as good as they should be ?
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Hey folks, thanks for your thoughtful analyses and for spending some extra time on this.
This is all great information, but I can't see how this being "modern" corresponds with the fact that it's been in MsGhopper's family for over 100 years, and she herself remembers seeing it when she was a child decades ago.
I did read an article this morning of an account from the early 19th century when an American was dealing with one of the Clews (can't remember which one). Clews was characterized as "difficult" and unwilling to take back substandard work. Since this type of ceramic was designed in England for the American export market, perhaps Clews was not picky about what went out.
Although far be it from me to cast aspersions on this piece. I think it's a beauty, odd spellings and all :)
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He made a lot of these and not a lot of value. Probably less than100 dollars
Who's "he?"
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Ipcress, thanks for the reference. I've e-mailed Norman; hopefully he'll get back to me with some knowledge.
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Hey folks, thanks for your thoughtful analyses and for spending some extra time on this.
This is all great information, but I can't see how this being "modern" corresponds with the fact that it's been in MsGhopper's family for over 100 years, and she herself remembers seeing it when she was a child decades ago.
I did read an article this morning of an account from the early 19th century when an American was dealing with one of the Clews (can't remember which one). Clews was characterized as "difficult" and unwilling to take back substandard work. Since this type of ceramic was designed in England for the American export market, perhaps Clews was not picky about what went out.
Although far be it from me to cast aspersions on this piece. I think it's a beauty, odd spellings and all :)
I've heard stories behind antiques or books that someone can remember being at their parents house in the 50s and they're dated 30 years later - they actually have the date written on them. Things get mixed up or replaced.
She could well be right but I'm just going on the pictures
this is why it's always best to use auction houses with online catalogues - even the big guys like Christies and Sotheby's makes mistakes. On the flip side, I've seen places like Skinners sell known fakes as authentic items. Often a Bergman bronze or something commercial like that.
There was a Staffordshire figurine on the tv the other day which was handled by an expert and described as original but the auction house regarded it as modern - the market decided it was, too.
It's a difficult game...
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In this case the provenance is impeccable. Her father, now 92, remembers it as well.
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I'm talking about clews. I have seen same pieces as yours at flea markets and antique shops. There is not a lot of value. Like the previous member above you can find these online also. I have seen these listed before to 60 to 80 dollars even with the same "scroll" symbol on the bottom. There pretty common.
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IPcress summed it up its modern unfortunately
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Excellent article Ipcress !! Thanks !! Still teaching this old dog some new tricks !!
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Wish I could be of help...but don't feel there is anything I can add one way or the other.
There are some pieces that you just have to have a hands on evaluation and I think this one warrants a look/see by someone in the know.
Love the deep blues.
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I sought the advice of the Transferware Collectors Club. Here is their response:
Hi *****,
Your pattern was made by Ralph & James Clews (1814-1834) around 1825. It is known as the States Series for the names of the States in the border (there are usually 15). Mainly, there is a different center on each size and shape, but the TCC database shows this pattern on a 12.5 inch platter. The scene is an English scene; Trematon Castle, Cornwall, but the interest is American because of the border, which also includes the words America And Independence, as well as a portrait of George Washington.
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NICE!!!!
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Have you measured this dish Ghopper to match with the size given by the expert if its the same piece ?? Seems the more I look at it the less right it looks for the 1825 date !! But it could well have been in the family for over 100 years if it was made in 1900 for the American market rather than 1825 !! That's a 75 year difference !! And the expert is just talking about the pattern,,not this particular dish so it still could have been made later !!
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This is a vegetable dish, not a platter. However, it matches the others I've found, even if a few details are different, all of which are dated to that time.
I have a further inquiry in to them and to Winterthur as well, regarding the pattern as it occurs on vegetable dishes, but at this point it seems like some folks are working overtime to call it modern or new, which it clearly is not. Now Transferware hobbyists have gone public on Facebook to say that this is a ca. 1825 pattern - NOT a pattern from 1825 reproduced in 1900 or 2015 - and I have no reason to disbelieve it, no matter how "horrid" the underside may look. I would imagine that if this piece were "wrong" they would have mentioned it, but I've inquired back just in case.
Other developments as they occur.
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Not working overtime but with different opinions posted many take a second look !!
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I'm talking about clews. I have seen same pieces as yours at flea markets and antique shops. There is not a lot of value. Like the previous member above you can find these online also. I have seen these listed before to 60 to 80 dollars even with the same "scroll" symbol on the bottom. There pretty common.
This is not the piece with the scroll symbol !! That was the Staffordshire pitcher/creamer !!
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I'm talking about clews. I have seen same pieces as yours at flea markets and antique shops. There is not a lot of value. Like the previous member above you can find these online also. I have seen these listed before to 60 to 80 dollars even with the same "scroll" symbol on the bottom. There pretty common.
This is not the piece with the scroll symbol !! That was the Staffordshire pitcher/creamer !!
I know, right? Let's keep our threads straight. :)
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Winterthur weighs in.
It pays to stick to your guns :)
"Dear Mr. ******
,
What a wonderful piece! We do have three versions of this dish in our collection, but one in particular is a very close match to yours. In our record, we have the following notes:
Created exclusively for export to America, this plate probably was designed to commemorate the 50th Anniversary of the Declaration of Independence in 1826. This plate is part of a series of patterns that have come to be known as the 'States Border' or 'America and Independence' series. While each pattern in the series features a different central view, each central image is flanked by two female figures on plinths identified as 'AMERICA AND' and 'INDEPENDENCE.' The figure on the left, wearing an apron bearing a square and compass, holds a portrait of George Washington and wears a blindfold labeled 'Justice.' The kneeling figure at right holds a staff on which a cap bearing the word 'LIBERTY' is perched. Surrounding the figures of America and Independence are scalloped panels with the names of the first 15 American states: Delaware, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Georgia, Connecticut, Massachusetts, Maryland, South Carolina, New Hampshire, Virginia, New York, North Carolina, Rhode Island, Vermont, and Kentucky. Interestingly, by the time this plate was produced an additional nine states had entered the Union, but only 15 of the 24 states are represented in the pattern. The central images in this series are based on copperplate engravings published by William Marshall in London from 1825 to 1828, and were likely small and untitled to hide the fact that English views were being featured in patriotic American patterns.
I have also attached an image of our dish. The transfer printing looks extremely close, with small spacing variations that likely resulted from the application process rather than the original printed design. That being said, the Staffordshire potteries were notorious about copying each other’s designs. In my personal opinion, however, the resemblance of the pattern is quite strong. The treatment of the underside (image also attached) is also very close, and they bear an impressed stamp in the upper right corner. The red you see on the underside of ours is the museum tracking number.
I hope this is of help!
Best wishes,
Lea"
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Already discounted my theory !! The pottery went bankrupt in 1834/35 And James was back in the UK shortly after !! Didn`t say what happened to the other Clews but the pottery changed hands soon after the bankruptcy !!
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Glad to read that, Ghopper ! I did say " Maybe there was a batch made for the American market and some weren't as good as they should be ? "
Certainly didn't resemble their British pottery and to a man no one i showed it to was prepared to say it was genuine.
It's an awful looking base, though. Those swirls and poorly impressed mark...
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I have to admit that the swirls on the bottom were taunting me to say modern/repro....but something just made me feel that a look see by an "expert" needed to be made. So....glad to hear it paid off! :)
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Hmmmm...sounds like some folks need some schoolin' in the ceramic arts... ;)
Anyway, thanks for the good wishes. Every day is a learning experience on Antique-Shop.com.
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I have to admit that the swirls on the bottom were taunting me to say modern/repro....but something just made me feel that a look see by an "expert" needed to be made. So....glad to hear it paid off! :)
Well that's a worry as i consider myself one ! :P More difficult with photos though.
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Well that's a worry as i consider myself one ! :P More difficult with photos though.
Yeah, ABSOLUTELY, photo's can fool anyone which is why i almost always add in a disclaimer when talking about pic's of old furniture.
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Totally agree jacon4.
After being on here for years we know that photos can be deceiving! So many times things can "look" perfect but you can tell differences by handling/feeling the piece and seeing all the perfections/imperfections.
"I have to admit that the swirls on the bottom were taunting me to say modern/repro....but something just made me feel that a look see by an "expert" needed to be made. So....glad to hear it paid off! :)"
I should have clarified that the "expert" I was referring to was someone that they could physically take it to that is knowledgeable in that area and not the occasional dabbler in antiques that they might take it to.
Wasn't insinuating about anyone's knowledge here or lessening their value on the the forum. All are valuable here!!! Life is good...chill...be happy!