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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: Billycourty on October 25, 2015, 09:06:20 AM
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Hello everyone and thank you for taking the time to read my post.
I live in France and brought this cross at an antique dealers (a hole in the wall affair nothing fancy but very cool) for 100 euro (he wanted 150). The seller said that it was Carolingian/ Charlemagne era (800s) but from looking on the internet I think it is Byzantine (800s). The seller thought it was made of iron, but another antique dealer thought it was made of Copper (he scratched it and it was reddish under the patina). The object doesn't come with provenance because it was purchased unknowingly with a job lot.
I would love to know if anyone has seen similar crosses, if they agree with the age, and what metal they think it is. Also how do these kinds of objects usually come to be found?
Thank you so much for your time, help and guidance
Jaymee
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Can we get a pic of the back so we can se where it was scratched ??
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This is the best I could get. Don't ask me why he scratched letters (BM). I also am including a photo of the back of the cross and one of a white "fissure" that might give more of a clue as to what the cross is made from/age.
Thank you for your help!
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Have you checked it with a magnet ?? Did some looking yesterday and from what I found,, I do not think yours is that early !! One thing that bothers me about your cross is the apparent mold lines around the edge !! Could be just the pic though !! Surprised me that these were fairly common to find in Europe because there were so many made !!
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Thank you for taking the time to reply. I don't see the "mold" lines that your talking about and neither of the antique dealers mentioned it. One i was paying, but the other was giving a free evaluation, and both were certain of its age (i am just a sceptic and am looking for further confirmation from others who might collect these objects). I tested the cross at your suggestion with a magnet and it was not magnetic at all. Does this mean the cross is not iron?
Thank you for your time and attention it is greatly appreciated!
Jaymee
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Yes !1 Not iron !! The lines I was talking about are on the edges !! I can see it best between the top of the cross and the side arms !! Looks similar to where something was poured into a mold and slightly ran outside the lines so to speak !!
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Interesting point about the pour lines Mart. The top 2 pics don't appear to have any...however the last pic looking down looks as if it could be.
Billycourty can you please post a close up pic of the side of the cross (have it protrude slightly off the edge of a counter top and take a picture with natural light) and a picture of the top down a little closer please! :)
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Reason I am curious is that is a really odd color for copper to turn !! Almost looks like something was poured over it !! But like I said,,may just be the way the pics look on my computer !!
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Early iron would have been made buy and ironsmith. Molded would be a casting. My husband when I first got married was an ironsmith. He worked in a forge for my brother in laws old family business. The family bought out Yellen. I will have my husband look at it later.
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Thank you all very much for taking the time to share your thoughts and knowledge. I have attempted to take several more photos in natural like and I hope they were what you were wanting. A close up shot of the cross is a little difficult because of its size, but i have done my best. Also it is a very gloomy week here in Paris so the natural light is not as vibrant as it could be. I think i will have to post the new photos in two lots of 3.
(http://i442.photobucket.com/albums/qq150/billycourty/image1_zpsxes5oswv.jpg) (http://s442.photobucket.com/user/billycourty/media/image1_zpsxes5oswv.jpg.html)
(http://i442.photobucket.com/albums/qq150/billycourty/IMG_5672_zpsxcngu80p.jpg) (http://s442.photobucket.com/user/billycourty/media/IMG_5672_zpsxcngu80p.jpg.html)
(http://i442.photobucket.com/albums/qq150/billycourty/image6_zpsas6nvnmt.jpg) (http://s442.photobucket.com/user/billycourty/media/image6_zpsas6nvnmt.jpg.html)
(http://i442.photobucket.com/albums/qq150/billycourty/image5_zpswhzkvreg.jpg) (http://s442.photobucket.com/user/billycourty/media/image5_zpswhzkvreg.jpg.html)
(http://i442.photobucket.com/albums/qq150/billycourty/image3%203_zpsn2ow9zpx.jpg) (http://s442.photobucket.com/user/billycourty/media/image3%203_zpsn2ow9zpx.jpg.html)
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Looks like copper to me. I've dug up pennies with a metal detecter, and they have a similar dark patina with a bit of green oxidization.
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Yes,, so have I but none had that turquoise color !! My opinion after seeing the close ups is that someone has artificially aged this cross !! It is just not correct for the patina and verdigris of copper to my eyes !! That turquois color seems to be just laying on top rather than the item developing that rich blue green of a natural verdigris !! And its a flat color !! I am not saying the cross is not old,, it could be,, but someone may have wanted it to appear older than its actual age !!
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Thank you once again for your thoughts!
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Hi, I totally agree with mart that the cross has an artificial patina. Also the ornaments do not look as if they are naturally worn, but just cast that way to look old, especially when you see the sharp edges in some parts that do not fit in the general image. So I suspect this is a mordern fake.
Mat
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I agree on the patina...it is only in the low areas as if applied and wiped off.
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Thank you all again for your thoughts. Personally I don't believe the patina to be applied, I don't know if any of you know much about antiques in France, but there really is no market for this sort of item. If I had bought it outside of France or somewhere there was tourist trade, I could agree. But why would any one go to the trouble of ageing this cross that has little value even if real. Also both antique dealers thought it was correct and both had other objects that they were quick to say were not old. antiques are not hard to come by in France, and religious things are a dime a dozen.
I think I will take the cross to a local museum and see what they think.
Thank you for all your time it is sincerely appreciated
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Please let us know what the museum tells you! I also do not believe that your cross was faked in France, but it can easily have come from a country where a market for these items exist! However the longer I look at your item, the more I am convinced that it is not original, and I have handeled quite some ancient and byzantine items...
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Thanks for posting about your cool little item , Billycourty . 8)
I'll toss my name in the hat with those who have the opinion that your item is not as old as you (& us) hoped it is .
It rather has the look of a portion of a door-knocker/drawer-pull/handle-for -something/etc , to me (what with sharp edges , possible wear marks & etc , at the 'drilled' portion of your item) .
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Well,, it is possible that we are wrong but I do not think so !! Even though these things may be common in your area,, you paid 100 euros for it !! A few transactions like that can add to the pocketbook considerably !! And another thing,, what reasonably intelligent antique dealer would scratch his initials in anything that old no matter the value ??
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Thanks for your help everyone I really appreciate it! If I get any sort of confirmation I will share it!
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BillyCourty, I hope we are all wrong for your sake.
You can only tell so much by pictures. Holding/handling items in person makes alot of difference on many items.
I am skeptical because of the patina.
Please let us know what you hear. Best of luck!
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Thanks for your kind words! I will defiantly get back to you!