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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: Mdcv on September 04, 2016, 08:50:32 AM
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Hi everyone, this is my first post reaching out for help/advice here!
Today my wife and I stumbled upon a very old case full of what we thought at the time was faux tortoise shell. I really don't know much at all about it, but there was so much of it, we figured it was surely non-authentic. Upon closer inspection, when we got it home, we discovered one of the pieces - a belt buckle or dress clip - had a metal clasp which under decades of patina, revealed these hallmarks below, when cleaned with a silver cloth. We have been doing a rudimentary search around the internet and are struggling to date it. Our closest shot would be 1885 (?)
We are quite taken by it, and many of the other objects in the case. As yet we have been unable to find any other examples of a similar clasp online.
If anyone can advise how to test for authenticity, we would be very keen to hear. One piece in the box looked clearly molded to me. When performing a hot needle test, it smelled very fragrant (like pine) and omitted a thick white smoke. Other pieces we tested did not smoke, and smelled strongly of burnt hair.
Any advice anyone may be able to offer would be greatly appreciated.
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The head looks like the British Monarch Duty Mark
http://www.acsilver.co.uk/shop/pc/British-English-Silver-Hallmarks-d84.htm (http://www.acsilver.co.uk/shop/pc/British-English-Silver-Hallmarks-d84.htm)
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Hi there and welcome to the forum !! This may be your first visit but we hope it will not be your last !! Is the pic the buckle you spoke of ?? The burnt hair smell would be the real tortoise shell !! Hope you checked it in an unobtrusive place or somewhere it would not be seen !!
Was this something inherited or purchased ??
Tortoise shell was popular throughout the 1800`s and even into the mid 20th century !!
http://www.ebay.com/gds/TORTOISESHELL-Real-or-fake-How-to-tell-the-difference-/10000000012067858/g.html
This should be of interest to you !! It has care instructions for natural tortoise shell !!
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The head looks like the British Monarch Duty Mark
http://www.acsilver.co.uk/shop/pc/British-English-Silver-Hallmarks-d84.htm (http://www.acsilver.co.uk/shop/pc/British-English-Silver-Hallmarks-d84.htm)
Looks just like Number 5 duty mark !!
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Thank you KC and Mart!
No, Mart, I've no intention of vanishing, now I'm here I love to share info about this growing hobby!
The links provided are wonderful resources, and in fact I had stumbled upon those in my research. The Monarchs head stamp seen in the link KC provided is quite clear, but the "o" inside a circle, I think denotes 1885. I'd love confirmation of this, as I'm not at all familiar with dating silver.
The hot pin testing was as a result of the link you provided Mart, and yes in an invisible part of the pieces. I think they were quite conclusive. We have cleaned and lightly oiled the pieces as the article recommends.
The case was purchased in a good will store, not inherited. My wife was attracted to the hair combs, which she has always admired. She and I are quite intuitive when looking at antiques, but we had no idea what we had stumbled upon. Here are more photos.
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More detailed pics.
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Here is the case it was all found in. The vanity set we strongly suspect is bakelite or faux tortoiseshell. These are just too many dissimilarities between it and all the other pieces.
As for the pieces shot in the individual photos above, we havent the faintest idea as to value. Id imagine they would need to be professionally seen (some have flakes, chips and so on), but we are wary of being groomed into parting with something that we are not so certain of (thats not to say dealers are shady, rather, that we are perhaps too green). 😉
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You have some nice pieces there! The pieces are collectible.
Try searching antique faux tortoiseshell celluloid hair comb. You will find comparables.
Okay first...Mart please see the pictures below. The top left picture is Mdcv's item enlarged - the diagram next to it is the Queen's Duty Mark and the picture below is another example of the mark on a silver bowl. This is to show that the mark looks like duty marks on many silver pieces!
Of note is the item that most would consider a "swastika" but was known as a gammadion. If you look at Native American items it is called a Whirling Log. It was very popular throughout history and became so in the early 20th Century in the US as a sign of good will/good luck. You will find it in jewelry, pottery, porcelain china, embroidered pieces, etc. That is until it gained it's negative attachment to Nazism. Notice that the piece you have is a right facing piece. Nazi's adopted the left-facing version in the 1920's but you will see it both ways.
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Yes,, thats what I said above !! Looks just like the Number 5 duty mark in your link !! Number 5 was the Queens head duty mark !!
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Oh....now I am acting "dull"! LOL I thought you meant it literally looked like the number "5"! Boy, is my brain off today! Thanks for being patient with me! :)
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LOL !! Its called brain fog !! :) Figured you misread but then I wasn`t very specific either !!
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Mdcv, hard to tell the date because you don't know the makers mark or the city mark. If you had the city mark, such as Birmingham or Chester, then you would have the date. They have different Date charts.
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Thank you KC. So according to the first link, the duty marks were made up until April 1890, so it predates that. I havent done a thorough search, but the birmingham letter mark "O" appears in a circle in 1888. Unless I find anything to the contrary, Im guessing that may be the one. It certainly fits within the reign of Victoria.
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That which later became the 'swastika' was first used in buddhist culture for centuries. The nazi's adopted a lot of symbolism from history and inverted or adapted it to give a converse meaning. The runic symbol Sowelu was another used by the Secret Service.
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Mdcv, that is so true. I didn't want to list all of the countries histories that have used this (thus I wrote " It was very popular throughout history and became so in the early 20th Century in the US as a sign of good will/good luck.") It has even been traced back to to B.C. - but there are arguments that it was used 5,000 years ago and some even say 12,000. Irregardless...it has been one heck of a long time! :)
The things that you need to pair together on this is the history of the material that the piece is made of, the history of using it in Jewelry AND the Queen's Duty Mark. (By-the-way, the duty mark was used even long after it was required because for some it added status and posterity.)
Here's a good read on Plastic, Celluloid, Bakelite and Lucite! (Always remember - there is more searching and not one site is always correct!)
http://www.collectics.com/education_plastic.html (http://www.collectics.com/education_plastic.html)
Still searching to help you narrow this down.
Word of caution: DO NOT USE THE HAIR COMBS if you intend to sell. Before I knew all about this antique history, I received some large trunks of of family items from the 17C forward and in it was a large tortoise colored beautiful comb. Well...me having extremely thick and long hair had to try it at one point. Yep, broke some teeth off and trashed it. Years later I delved into it like you are now...and got sick to my stomach! Oh well...ignorance WAS bliss!
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Oh KC thats a horror story, isnt it?! Ive done similar things with other objects, only to later find and appreciate their aesthetic and monetary value!
I think your idea of researching the pieces is a good idea. Perhaps an expert can give some insights as to age or origin. I reached out to a dealer with photos who is known to us and she got rather excited and said there are some highly collectable pieces (she didnt say which), and mentioned some possibly using a rarer tortoise shell. We have made an appointmentforher to look over the collection next monday.
Thank you for the celluloid/lucite link. All very helpful. 😊
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Be sure and let us know what they say !! We are curious !!
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For sure, Mart 😉
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Update on the tortoise.
Our dealer was rather enthusiastic, testing and confirming each piece is genuine. The "hero" pieces in her eyes are the neckchain and the cloak clasp. She believes the hallmark to be ca. 1840s (young Victoria head), but this is yet to be confirmed. Her valuation included retail prices on individual items and were very good. She mentioned one or two pieces might have been galapagus tortoise (also unconfirmed). All in all its a tidy and valuable collection.
If anyone here has any further info on shapes, origins, identification etc, please feel free to chime in.
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Thats excellent !! But what about the brush and comb vanity set ?? And those with the chemical smell with the hot pin test ??
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The vanity set was faux tortoise, just as I had imagined. (Brushes and mirror). Those were the only pieces that smelled pine-y with the hot needle test. All the remaining pieces tested positive for tortoise shell, with needle testing, comparison testing and examination under a loupe, Mart. 👍
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Even better !! Glad for you !! That was quite a find !!
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GADS!!! FABULOUS!!! I am a historic reenactor so I am drooling with envy! I own one, much treasured, genuine tortoiseshell 1850s hair comb and I paid $200 for it. Oh what I wouldn't have given to have been in your thrift store! Congratulations on a wonderful find. So exciting when that happens!
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Oh and by the way, I believe that long oblong piece is a busk. This would be quite early I think 1840s or so, when flat front corsets were most in fashion. The busk slips into an elongated pocket on the front of the corset and creates a flat look instead of a curve from bust to waist. I have only seen these made out of wood, bone or ivory. Never tortoiseshell and I think you may have something very special there. See Figure 10 on this page: http://cool.conservation-us.org/jaic/articles/jaic32-03-001.html (http://cool.conservation-us.org/jaic/articles/jaic32-03-001.html)
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Thank you talesofthesevenseas, I would LOVE to see your tortoise comb! Can you post a picture?
Yes we were quite excited... not for any potential fiscal rewards; rather, in saving something special from a very uncertain future.... at least now they can be preserved and appreciated!
I have never heard of a busk! Thats VERY interesting! I might just have to research that a bit more! Even our expert was puzzled saying it was too large to be a letter opener, and too pointy to be a page turner.
Thank you so much for chiming in with your insights!
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Oh and by the way, I believe that long oblong piece is a busk. This would be quite early I think 1840s or so, when flat front corsets were most in fashion. The busk slips into an elongated pocket on the front of the corset and creates a flat look instead of a curve from bust to waist. I have only seen these made out of wood, bone or ivory. Never tortoiseshell and I think you may have something very special there. See Figure 10 on this page: http://cool.conservation-us.org/jaic/articles/jaic32-03-001.html (http://cool.conservation-us.org/jaic/articles/jaic32-03-001.html)
Just found this.... tortoise and whale bone busks! I think you might be right on the money!
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I have been following your thread with great interest. Congratulations on your find :) ( Just a snoopy newbie )
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I'm pretty sure that I am correct about the busk. I have a friend who is a textiles curator at the DAR Museum in Washington DC. I think I can get confirmation from her. I will check.
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She asked if it is flat or curved?
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My first thought when I saw the picture was that it was a tortoiseshell page turner or bookmark (it has a pointed end). Aren't most busk blunt end?
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Most yes, but I did see some pointed ones. She feels this is probably too small and too pointy to be a busk.
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Here is my haircomb. I bought it because it is so similar to the one worn by my great-great-grandmother in this picture:
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My first thought when I saw the picture was that it was a tortoiseshell page turner or bookmark (it has a pointed end). Aren't most busk blunt end?
Some in the link Tales gave were sharp pointed !!
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She asked if it is flat or curved?
It is completely flat and approximately 21cm (8 and 5/16 inches) long.
Ive found examples online of pointed busks, rounded busks, flat-edged busks, and pieces that combine these shapes.
Btw... what an amazing comb and photo!! So wonderful to have such an heirloom! And the resemblance to the one your great-great grandmother wore is uncanny!
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I actually had baleen busks in my hands this past summer. The Heritage Museum and Gardens in Sandwich MA has community outreach "show and tell" and drinks! I was surprised that most of the examples they brought where at least 12 inches long. These were from a time when most women were around 5 feet tall. You just never know what kind of topic will come up in this forum.
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Agree Pelady! There's always something new in a different category...
Love the picture of your G-G-Grandmother. Do agree the comb looks alot like the one she wore. Have you tried to recreate the photo talesofthesevenseas?
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I have been following your thread with great interest. Congratulations on your find :) ( Just a snoopy newbie )
Thanks debc !