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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: jacon4 on September 05, 2016, 04:03:05 AM
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An exhibition on Rhode Island early furniture and other objects and a book published this month titled "Art and Industry in Early America: Rhode Island Furniture, 1650–1830". One of the stars in this exhibition is this bookcase below built by Christopher Townsend, 1745-1750, plum pudding mahogany, mahogany secondary wood with silver mounts/pulls by Samuel Casey, silversmith. Of particular interest are the feet, something rarely seen in american furniture.
http://artgallery.yale.edu/exhibitions/exhibition/art-and-industry-early-america-rhode-island-furniture-1650-1830
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What ?? No Goddard furniture in there ??
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Well, i didn't really check but is pretty sure Goddard is in there. Thing is, many artisans did NOT sign their work which is bummer if trying to figure out who made what. Some, like John Townsend was a prolific signer of his stuff and so much easier than saying "attributed" to so & so.
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The above bookcase sold for over 8 million in 1999 i think, making it the second highest price ever paid for a single piece of american furniture. It was found in France minus the ball feet and stands at 9 feet tall. The missing ball feet were replaced after the sale, apparently the feet were lost while it was in France for several generations. It is known as the Appleton secretary, a pastor in Cambridge Mass who ordered this from the Goddard/Townsend shop and it is reportedly " the most lavish and expensive piece of Colonial furniture ever commissioned in North America." Yeah, i don't doubt it, it looks like this pastor was doing OK in 1745.
http://www.nytimes.com/1999/02/11/garden/design-notebook-oh-the-tales-a-secretary-could-tell.html?pagewanted=all
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Wonder what the original price was to have it made ??
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I rarely brag on anyones journalism skills but the person that wrote that article was excellent !! He made you feel like you were at that auction !! Only thing he did not do,,assuming it was intended,, is to say who the phone bidder was !! Darn !!
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Wonder what the original price was to have it made ??
Boy, i dunno but it had to be a BUNCH! because, when was the last time you heard of a piece of furniture with the same secondary wood as the primary? and then there is the matter of the hardware, solid silver! i think it is the only known piece of colonial furniture that has silver pulls. This pastor had some rather expensive tastes!
Then there is the feet, although these ball feet are new/replaced, when was the last time you saw a piece with bracket feet AND ball feet below the bracket feet? And how about the cabinetmaker Chris Townsend? check out his house/shop below & Goddard house/shop on water st, these guys built furniture for the aristocracy. Add all this up, this was a very expensive piece of furniture, even in 1745.
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Wonder what the original price was to have it made ??
Sometimes you can use a reverse currency calculator to get an idea, but in this case it doesn't work. Still....
For fun, $8,000,000 in 1774 dollars (the year the dollar was established) = $278,467. Let's just say that, in 1745 currency the piece cost $200, which would be high, even with silver pulls. Before anyone starts nitpicking, this is NOT exact, it's just for fun.....
Even the finest house in the 13 colonies did not cost anywhere near $278,000, much less a piece of furniture. There is a heck of a lot of appreciation in there! I guess it's like Jacon said, at the top end of the market there are still investment opportunities.
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I guess it's like Jacon said, at the top end of the market there are still investment opportunities.
OH YEAH! check this out, in 2013 John Goddard's house was put on the market in Newport for 890k.......and DIDN'T sell!
http://www.oldhousedreams.com/2013/07/10/1750-georgian-newport-ri/
What to do? paint it green, add a couple extra old houses to go with it and reduce the price to 750K......SOLD!
http://www.oldhousedreams.com/2013/05/23/c-1750-georgian-newport-ri/
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Nice. Not my thing, but great interiors. I would happily live in either one. But what's with the barracks-style sleeping in the attic of Goddard's house? :o ;D
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But what's with the barracks-style sleeping in the attic of Goddard's house?
Well hey, you gotta have help when building furniture, that's where the apprentices slept!
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All kidding aside, Chris & Job Townsend (founders of the clan) were joiners when they came to Newport and made the change to cabinetmakers. John Goddard was an apprentice to Job and eventually started his own shop on Water St. All these guys were Quakers, the 2 families were inter-married, Goddard married Job's daughter. In all, over the course of 120 years or so, there were 20 something members of this clan building furniture at various times all through the 18th century and into the 1st quarter of the 19th century.
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Loved the Goddard house,, but the Townsend house is a bit over done !!
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That's right, pick on the old man of the family biz, reaches for my smite stick!
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I suspect that over the years, everyone in the clan played a role, from beginner to the old man who actually worked out the details of a commission over tea or some such. Considering the clients they had, it's understandable that they would want a setting where the client was comfortable.
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That's right, pick on the old man of the family biz, reaches for my smite stick!
Didn`t mean as it was originally,,but it was moved and had two buildings added on plus a screened porch which itself was not a bad addition !! The interior decoration is what I was talking about being a bit much for a historical home !! Stuff in there just doesn`t match, too many patterns in the same space ect,,ect,, !! The Goddard house by comparison is more historically accurate in the decoration yet still being brought into the 21st century !! It is exactly what I would want in a home like this !! Comfortable,,warm,, not overdone !!
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lol, was just teasing you! What's weird is, those houses are still there and available! Another thing, that woodwork, it was probably made and installed by them personally.
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Yes,, I know !! That smite stick will be worn out before long !!
I just don`t get why someone buys a home with such history and then starts to re-build/re-do it !! Kind of defeats the purpose to me !! With exceptions for kitchen,, bath ect !!
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Yes,, I know !! That smite stick will be worn out before long !!
I just don`t get why someone buys a home with such history and then starts to re-build/re-do it !! Kind of defeats the purpose to me !! With exceptions for kitchen,, bath ect !!
Couldn't agree more.
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I just don`t get why someone buys a home with such history and then starts to re-build/re-do it !!
Location, location, location of the home/property ...... is far more important than the providence associated with the home/property.
Hasn't Newport, Rhode Island, been the "place-to-live" of the rich n' famous .... dating back to the early 1800's?
Gilded Age
Beginning in the mid-nineteenth century, wealthy southern planters seeking to escape the heat began to build summer cottages on Bellevue Avenue such as Kingscote (1839). Around the middle of the century, wealthy Yankees such as the Wetmore family also began constructing larger mansions such as Chateau-sur-Mer (1852) nearby. Most of these early families made a substantial part of their fortunes in the Old China Trade.
Source https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newport,_Rhode_Island (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newport,_Rhode_Island)
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Moving it is fine and many times is necessary to preserve it !! But I prefer to keep it as close to original as possible even if you have to change the location !! That Goddard house I could just move in, unpack a suitcase and be perfectly at home !!
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That smite stick will be worn out before long !!
lol, Don't you bet on it! SMITE!
Well, i have had this conversation more than once over the years, particularly in Washington DC, where i am from. Client has a historic bldg and they want it to remain the same! I can't do that i would say if you want modern plumbing + HVAC, it's just not possible! Something has gotta give somewhere. 2 objects can't occupy the same space at the same time.
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The Goddard house has modern plumbing and a beautiful modern kitchen !! But they have been done to blend with the historic elements !! Believe me,,if I had that kind of money,,I would figure it out !! This stuff ain`t cheap !!
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Yeah, those baths are right outa the 1950s, ICKY! I woulda been SHOT! in DC if i had built those in some of the historic buildings i did there.
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Well,, You could have just handed them a chamber pot to keep it original to the era !! I like the 50`s !!
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ICKY! i say
Which is why or one of the reasons they had trouble selling it. Women have VERY LITTLE humor when it comes to baths & kitchens, trust me.
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I had an uncle (by marriage) that refused to have a bathroom inside his house !! It was not a financial thing,, he was fairly well to do !! Made quite a bit of money when they hit oil in his lease !! That was the Talco oil field !! So I know he could afford it,, he just didn`t want one inside !! We always spent a week there every summer so I have an appreciation for good plumbing after that !! He finally relented about mid 60`s and installed a bathroom !!
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LOL, hilarious! It pleases me Mart had to suffer a no bathroom policy for a week each year, it makes one really take notice of what is taken for granted by most in the first world. In the third world, this is a normal situation, they have concrete, electricity, carpenters, etc. but, the one glaring thing they lack? PLUMBERS! and modern plumbing.
In DC, one of the last projects i did was the Morrison-Clark Inn. It was an 1860's mansion that was restored & a new steel & concrete addition that made the project viable economically. The bad news that i was not aware of until the project started, there were SIX historical societies along with the National Trust that had put money into the restoration of the mansion and therefore had a say in the restoration, what a NIGHTMARE! The painting contractor who painted the exterior started by stripping all the wood trim and re-painted the bare wood so many times with different colors that he had to re-strip the wood AGAIN! As the plumbing/mechanical contractor, i didn't have it as bad as the painter but i went round n round with those historic people for several years. Pics at the link
https://www.google.com/search?safe=off&espv=2&q=morrison+clark+inn+photos&oq=morrison+clark+inn+photos&gs_l=serp.3..0i22i30k1l2.17290.19951.0.20392.7.7.0.0.0.0.79.485.7.7.0....0...1c.1.64.serp..0.7.482...0j33i160k1j33i21k1.1OAfzSOxZgs
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Very nice but that would have been a royal pain in the posterior !! My question is,, what did they do with the bathrooms !!
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Well, in 1860 they didnt have bathrooms! the bathrooms were not really the problem, it was HVAC ducts, low pressure in those days with very large sheet metal boxes to deliver air. Now they have high pressure HVAC and you can deliver high pressure air in 2" pvc pipe to registers, wishes they had it back in the day. The real problem was WAY TO MANY historic people in the mix, i give credit to the National Trust, they tried to keep all those people in the sand box but there were just to many of them.
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I know they didn`t have bathrooms but how did they design these hotel bathrooms to integrate with the 1800`s design wise ?? Or did they just install modern fixtures and keep the bathroom doors closed so no one could see !!
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Well, the baths were small, say 8x5, it was not difficult to find space for them although pipe routing was difficult because directly below were public rooms and NO PIPE, NO DUCT could intrude on that 1st floor. None of this was a problem in new addition, it was that mansion where all the issues came into being and was SUPPOSED to be a minor part of the project.
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Wow...this subject has become very interesting!
My kids adopted from Russia never used a toilet until we adopted them. They had "poop pots" (large cooking pots) in the orphanage! Then, majority of the plumbing in Russia still doesn't accommodate toilet paper so you can't flush it - goes in the trash can! WE ARE SO SPOILED HERE!
The most important up-to-date part of homes is the kitchen and bathrooms. So, they would have to update some but....keep it in style with the home!
Mart, I couldn't imagine you leaving the farm and going to that house with just a suitcase. Made me laugh! You would be bored out of your mind without a field to plow!
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LOL !! I should have said if I could move it here !! Your right,, I am just no city girl !! Here I can walk outside and I have the horses, garden, stocked catfish pond and 30 acres to roam !! If I get tired of this one I have 30 more acres down the road and another catfish pond !!
I do not have time here to get bored !! Should be outside picking pears now but have not made it yet !!
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Should be outside picking pears now but have not made it yet !!
This is what happens to old women, they can't cut it anymore, can't even pick the pears!
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LOL !! I am beginning to think you may be right !!
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Of course i am right!
Meanwhile, there is a tavern table coming to sale in a couple weeks. This table i have been tracking since 2003, when albert sack bought it at auction for 93k for a Virginia collector. Now Albert, in his later years while retired here in NC to be closer to his family, had been known to over-pay for objects but, in his defence, it takes 2 to tango at auction. It last sold at Northeast in NH, this time it's at Pook, in Penn.
In any event, get ready to get BORED TO DEATH on this table as i plan on posting on it when catalog is released later this month. It's walnut, from NYC and it is inlaid, with the date inlaid on drawer, 1731. It has a very german, dutch type feel to the decoration and it will be interesting to see how it does this time around. Since it's on the cover of the pook catalog, they obviously think it's special, i do too.
http://www.pookandpook.com/americana-auction-october-7-and-8-2016/
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Have to admit,, its a nice table !! But W&M with Penn. Dutch/German !! Don`t think I have seen that before !! Whats the history of the table ??
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It's a beauty alright!
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But W&M with Penn. Dutch/German !! Don`t think I have seen that before !! Whats the history of the table ??
Well, this table was built in New York City and, there were a lot of german, dutch people there, they all didn't go to
pennsylvania. The reason i say the inlaid decoration has a german/dutch feel to it is, that compass star and those flowers/tulips were a big deal to their cultural history. Look at this desk, found in Brooklyn built most likely by germans/dutch because there are inscriptions on interior in their language. Also, the desk is sweet gum, a prime wood in new york furniture building in the early years.
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Is that desk ca. 1700?
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My guess would be about 1760 !!
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yes, say 1690-1710 or so, pretty early. As you can see, it has 2 framed panels in front, a 17th century theme but also, a dovetail case which is the "newer" style of william and mary. And although the primary wood is sweet gum, those 2 front panels are mahogany.
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Darn,, I was way off !!
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wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyy offffffffffffffffff fffffffffffffff, this is what happens when you get old! BAM!
Anytime you see that frame panel thingy, you know it's early, that is how joiners showed off their woodworking skill. As time went along in the 17th century, it became more elaborate, look at those panels on the bird chest for example, that's a hell of a lot of mitering and difficult to do well.
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:D Might have helped if we had all looked at the date on the front !! We`re slipping Ghopper !!
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Slipping? I was right on! Besides, sometimes its good to test the old skills, eh? ;D ;D ;)
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Thats right !! I looked at the wrong one !! Gotta start paying attention !!