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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: jacon4 on September 25, 2016, 02:47:08 AM
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Okey Dokey, fabulous W&M new york city walnut table up for sale in a couple weeks. Dated 1731 and most likely built by german speaking immigrants because of the inlaid decorations of tulips. This table was last sold at northeast auctions in 2003 for 93k, purchased by Albert Sack for a virginia collector. More pics at the link.
https://pookandpook.com/lots/americana-october-8-2016-lot-448/
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Also in this sale is a great southern pie safe, sale estimate of 2-4k and, if it goes for anything close to that, a bargain. Pics at the link
https://pookandpook.com/lots/americana-october-8-2016-lot-1/
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That table looks like cherry and walnut !! Looks like cherry top rail, inlays ??
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Yellow pine, painted. Fine example of that form, probably virginia, 1st quarter 19th century
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Both the table and the pie safe are nice,,but the safe would be my preference even if a little "busy" !!
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Looks like now's the time to buy the table. It looks like it's estimated to go quite a bit cheaper than the last time it sold.
In any case, my preference would be for the table. Love that bell/abstracted cup and cover motif on the legs.
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I would think that the time (1730s) and tulip inlay would point to Holland, not Germany.
Well, first off, Holland is not a country, Holland is a part of the Kingdom of the Netherlands. It gets a little complicated over there which is why i changed to "german speaking immigrant".
Both the table and the pie safe are nice,,but the safe would be my preference even if a little "busy" !!
Mart, if you picked the table and sold it, you could probably buy a dozen or more of the best examples of pie safes.
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You know I only bet on a sure thing !! And that table is not it !! Besides its more than my pickers budget allows !!
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Second off, when I crossed the eastern border on the train into the country, the Dutch border police asked me how long I was staying in Holland,by far the most populous provinces of the Netherlands. They seemed relaxed and confident that I knew what they were talking about; maybe they need an American to tell them what they should be calling their own country.
In 1731 the Dutch in the former New Amsterdam would have been speaking Dutch, not German. At that time Germans would have been far more likely to settle in Pennsylvania. The German flood into New York was in the 19th century.
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Lol, yeah i hear you but no, Holland is not a country. It is a bit confusing, there is a north & south Holland but both are provinces in the nation of Netherlands. Hey, they are all square heads to me and speak german! so i say whats the diff but to them, it's not all clogs, windmills & tulips. Although i hear they still make those wooden clogs for the tourists!
The official language is Dutch,a West Germanic, Low Franconian language (whatever that is) that originated in the Early Middle Ages (c. 470) and was standardised in the 16th century. Most people there speak 3 languages, dutch, german & english.
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You know I only bet on a sure thing !! And that table is not it !!
Yes it is! You could buy a whole house full of kick ass pie/food safes for what that table will bring.
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Here is a little diddy on new amsterdam (New Netherland) from the history channel and, according to them germans were there as well as many others.
http://www.history.com/news/the-dutch-surrender-new-netherland-350-years-ago
It's kinda like Austria, it's not germany but they speak german, ditto the Swiss so i lump them in there too.
"Pennsylvania Dutch" the word "dutch" does not refer to Dutch people (Nederlanders) or their descendants, but to Deitsch or Deutsch (German).
Bottom line, its just easier to say german speaking immigrant.
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Pennsylvania Dutch just refers to the art form/style of decoration,,not the people !!
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Yes, I know about the Pennsylvania Deutsch and the devolution in pronunciation that lead (and still leads, on occasion) people to mistakenly call these people of German descent "Dutch." Because there is a difference, just ask anyone from Holland...or The Netherlands.
I'm sure there were Germans in New York, just as there were in Boston, Baltimore, Richmond and most other American cities in the 1730s. My point stands. The Dutch (who spoke Dutch, which is its own language despite its strong resemblance to German) were masters of marquetry and still quite prominent in what had until recently been New Amsterdam. The principle German immigration to New York didn't take place until the 1800s.
Dutch craftsman. It sounds so plausible!
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Dutch craftsman. It sounds so plausible!
LOL, OK, have it your way! Thing is, no one has attributed that table to anyone but me, i see those tulips and that compass star and BAM! Germanic themes if there ever were any.
I have been looking into "Fraktur" recently, which means fractured or broken letters. It's a germanic folk art form that used to be cheap but now is hideously expensive for good examples and it has tulips, birds, stars, hearts, etc as a central theme. Really cool stuff!
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LOL !! Think I will go brush out my pigtails !! :D
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OK, ;D
Anyway....tulips=Dutch. You know, windmills, wooden shoes, dikes, tulips. We know this. :D
I'd like to find out more about Fraktur myself. Sounds interesting.
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If you notice, that pie safe has tulip, philphlot, and star designs punched on it's tins and, although the only attribution in catalog is "southern" probably because it's yellow or hard pine, I'd say it was probably Virginia, somewhere in the Shenandoah valley because there was/is a large german speaking immigrant community there. Naturally, this is all pure speculation on my part, ditto on that table but there is no doubt that those decorations played a large role with german speaking people.
I'd also note that having these objects, particularly that table, at a Pook & Pook sale is an interesting choice, Pook is the most well known auction house in the nation when it comes to german american objects. I am not so sure that consigning to Christie's or Sotheby's in new york would have been a better choice at least for that table but in any event, congrats to Pook on that "get", it's a really wonderful piece of americana. We will soon know if consigners made the right choice, sale is Oct 7th.
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You know I only bet on a sure thing !! And that table is not it !!
Yes it is! You could buy a whole house full of kick ass pie/food safes for what that table will bring.
Mart is much more conservative, like myself, in that she doesn't want a "a whole house full of kick ass pie/food safes" and that she would only want one! I'm sure she is out of the BIG buying/turning over multiple items, like myself.
I think the table is gorgeous - really love the bell detail. However, I REALLY LIKE the pie safe.
I think the really dark wood is my negative on the table (However I know it is what adds to the age/value.) I have very little painted wood in my home - just a few accent pieces. Majority are medium to medium/dark tones. However, if I did come across one for a "reasonable price" and could turn it to a collector who would love/cherish it...I would!
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However, I REALLY LIKE the pie safe.
LOL, yeah, i figured you and the old woman would like that safe, it's a very nice one no doubt. I have a strong feeling that the estimate (2-4k) is way to low, more of a tease really. It would not surprise me if it goes into the 5 figures, it's a great example of that form.
The table is much more formal furniture and those walnut legs are ebonised (stained black) which was popular in the W&M period, it's kinda weird today to think about staining walnut black but hey, it was the fashion of the day.
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she doesn't want a "a whole house full of kick ass pie/food safes" and that she would only want one!
OK, i'll bite, the thing is, they were discussing if they had a choice, which one would you pick. If she chose the table, she could sell it and buy just one kick ass safe and put 50k or more in her bank account!
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Quite conservative !! I have not seen a piece of furniture yet that I would pay $50 or $60 grand for !!
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Mart, that kinda misses the point, just because you wouldn't, doesn't mean no one will! And that table could go for 100k or there about, they just put 50-60k as a starting point. Bottom line is, if you had a CHOICE! and could pick the table or the safe, it would be nuts to pick the safe! You are not buying it, you are getting it for free and, you have a choice between the 2, PICK THE TABLE! Someone go over to the old woman and tap her with a hammer, i think she's having a catatonic fit or something!
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;D ;D
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Yeah !! And you are just now telling me it free ?? That changes the situation a bit !! But remember the last one that you said would bring $100,000. ?? The Museum quality 17th century one ??
I listened to you and way over priced what I thought it would sell for originally when we were all guessing the final price !!
LOL !! So I am not taking any chances !! :D
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You go girl!
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But remember the last one that you said would bring $100,000. ??
Oh lord, this is getting worse than ghopper's dutchman/holland fantasy! I never said that pilgrim table would bring 100k, i said it COULD! Another thing that jumps out at me in regards to this W&M table is, the auction house. If the goal is to get the most money for an object, almost as important as the object itself is, WHERE! you sell it. If this W&M table were mine, there is little doubt where i would market it, in new york city at christies or sothebys, at their annual Jan sale of americana , which happens at the same time as the americana show that brings in some of the most well heeled dealers & collectors in the nation. In the space of a single week in Jan. you have 2 americana sales and the americana show in NYC, it doesn't get any better than that!
No offence to Pook in this case or Skinner in that pilgrim table case but, do you remember that pilgrim blanket chest this past Jan. at christies? It sold for over a million dollars as i recall, CASE CLOSED!
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But remember the last one that you said would bring $100,000. ??
Oh lord, this is getting worse than ghopper's dutchman/holland fantasy!
Fantasy? Sucka please! Funny how often you're misunderstood.
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I have been looking into "Fraktur" recently, which means fractured or broken letters. It's a germanic folk art form that used to be cheap but now is hideously expensive for good examples and it has tulips, birds, stars, hearts, etc as a central theme.
Jacon4, people are still doing fraktur. I am proudly Pennsylvania Dutch and my 1986 marriage license from Berks County is fraktur (printed, but they still honored the tradition) and my husband's aunt made us one herself.
I had to take the photo from off to the side because of glare on the glass, but you get the idea.
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ssf2, yeah, i know they do, you can buy new fraktur online very reasonably. Neat that you even know what it is, it's a somewhat obscure art form that is not widely known. Dear ol aunty did pretty well with that fraktur! did she do the art work as well? which i am guessing is watercolor? or is that the printed one?
I have been reading the Donald Shelly book on fraktur which, according to many if you only read one book on it, that's THE ONE! I have also been bidding on antique examples sometimes but with not a lot of success.
For those not familiar with the form, here is a pinterest page that gives examples
https://www.pinterest.com/redwheel/fraktur/
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All the artwork was done by my husband's aunt, watercolor from the look of it. She still does them for family members' weddings. She also does theorem paintings (free-hand, not stencils) and is quite an accomplished artist. She has also done scherenschnitte in the past, but it is too tedious to do as she is getting older. Lots of older art forms out there for people to check out if interested.
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ssf2, where do you live, Pa?
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Originally from Pa, now in Ohio. Most of the family is still in Berks County, PA, though.
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Ahhh Haaaa, that's heartland for Pennsylvania stuff! Do you collect or just admire from afar?
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Beautiful work by your Aunt! What a great family heirloom!
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Jacon4, I don't actively collect artwork. I just buy something I see if I like it. I have several theorems but they are all no older than 30 or 40 years as I purchased them new from the artists. All but one are from Lancaster or Berks County. I also have quite a few scherenschnitte, also in the same age range that are going to my daughter for in her new house. Older things are much harder to find as families tend to keep them, and if you can find old ones in good shape they tend to be pricey.
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and if you can find old ones in good shape they tend to be pricey.
Oh Boy!~ I heard that! In any event, neat that your aunt carries on the tradition and does it very well too! I get alerts from auctions houses on stuff that i collect and i put in fraktur a year ago so i could at least track ones that i liked and maybe bid on a few if the estimate was reasonable. The problem is, the ones that i like, someone else likes more, in some cases A LOT MORE! You find these for sale at Pook and Conestoga (now Hess) in Pa, Garths in Ohio and southern ones at Brunk and Case. Fraktur is HIGHLY collectable and i can see why, it's very charming in depicting everyday life events in an often colorful way.
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Getting back to the safe and table, the safe has mid 20th century paint so that is why the estimate is low. On the table, there is no condition report yet so i inquired about one, i am interested in the legs/stretchers, original? repairs or restorations? I'll post if Pook replies.
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OK, Pook replied on table
"Age crack to top. Patches to applied dish molding on one end. A few small repaired blowouts from pegs to side of case. A couple losses to caps at top of legs. A couple repairs to stretchers. Nice old surface."
Hmmmm, legs & stretchers seem to be original, which means, BIG BUCKS!
I am going to guess, 85k with BP
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Ok Lets go with $ 72 K total !! Happy now Jacon4 ??
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How about pie safe? even with modern paint, I'll guess $5800.
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$3800. total !!
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You are gonna lose old woman, DEAL WITH IT!
So on total cost you have 65k on table and 3800 on safe
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No !! That is plus BP !!
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We want totals here, not some scam that gives you deniability! It's 20% BP . TOTAL NUMBER ONLY PLEASE! per object!
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Now why do that ?? Isn`t hammer price what we are estimating ?? Thats why I put +BP and didn`t include it in the figure !! The auction house gets the BP so it is not part of the actual selling price !!
If the BP is added into the figure it gives an inflated amount for value !!
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Nope, it's the price you PAY, not the hammer price! It doesn't matter who gets what, what matters is, how much did you pay for the item. And 20% is not a little thing.
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OK Jacon4 !! I changed my figures !!
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lol, it's a miracle? ok, FINALLY! When you look up prices at auctions, they always include the BP in price and buyers are mindful of it when bidding, trust me.
And yes, i am happy now!
And, you are still gonna lose!
There are quite a few Fraktur pieces in this sale, i have my eye on one but i'll bet others do as well. fraktur used to be cheap but ever since it got the "folk art" label, it is anything but cheap these days for good examples.
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Post a link to the one you are looking at !! Will check it out later,, the bass are calling me this morning !!
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Don't know if this link will work for you or not
http://auctions.bidsquare.com/view-auctions/individual-lots/?page=1&key=fraktur&cat=&catm=any&order=timeleft&live=yes&timed=yes®ular=yes&buynow=yes&makeoffer=yes&xclosed=yes
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Which one are you looking at ?? There are 35 on that page !!
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Lot # 2, 6 and 520.
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I like #2 best !!
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There are a couple more i like but they are by known artists so, NEVERMIND! This little cutie went for, i think, 110k in 2005 so fraktur get get pricey in a hurry! "Lady Washington"
Did you catch anything?
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A few small yearling bass !! But I was after the larger ones !! They must have slept in !!
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You can't handle larger Bass! BAM!
Odd how i came into Fraktur, i had several people over for a dinner party a couple years ago and as i was busy in the kitchen, i heard this VERY LOUD, JAMES!!!! coming from somewhere in the house. It alarmed me, i am thinking, someone got hurt, fell off the deck, drown in the pool, something BAD! so i rushed to see what the problem was and this lady says "do you realize you do not have a single decoration hanging on your walls in this entire house?"
Actually, no, i didn't know that, it just never occurred to me, not something i thought about ever, til then. And since i am an old furniture freak and had always been around fraktur while never giving it a thought and it is usually framed and ready to hang i figured hey, let's try a little Fraktur!
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That's a good story! So now your walls are full?
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So now your walls are full?
Hardly but, at least i got a couple things up! I am not batting 000 the way it was 2 years ago! It's not as easy as it sounds, first you gotta find it, then you need to like it and finally there is the price thingy that rears it's ugly head. Add all that up and it doesn't happen in a half hour!
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Jacon4 I looked again at the #2 piece !! There is some serious staining upper left corner !! And in the description they called them birds,, they are in fact eagles !! Just wondered if you noticed that ?? Maybe it will sell at a reasonable price !!
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, Yeah, i saw that stain.Staining or foxing does not bother me, hey, it's old paper and besides, perfection is borrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr rrrrrrrring. Eagles are birds Mart, lol, birds of prey actually.
What did you think of "lady washington"? on that horse, would you pay $110,000. for that? someone did in 2005. I think a museum bought it.
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LOL !! Again,, Jacon4,, you missed the point !! Many would not like that much staining on something they buy !! Thats kind of like buying an antique lace table cloth and finding that someone already spillled wine on it !! Not talking about the normal stains of age !! And if I were advertising something of that era,, eagles sound much more appealing than just a couple of birds sitting on a tree limb !! What I meant was that because of this it may sell at a more reasonable price !!
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You could be right, we will know this weekend.
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What I meant was that because of this it may sell at a more reasonable price !!
True, except as a collector of 300 year old furniture, those pieces ALWAYS have condition issues so i have a pretty high tolerance for that kind of thing. If one doesn't, they need to collect mid century modern where you can get almost perfect examples, that sort of perfect piece just does not exist in my world of collecting.
With Fraktur, i do not really know because i haven't been collecting long but, if it's a known artist, has a feeling condition issues are over looked to a large extent, same as they are with very old furniture.
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, Yeah, i saw that stain.Staining or foxing does not bother me, hey, it's old paper and besides, perfection is borrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr rrrrrrrring. Eagles are birds Mart, lol, birds of prey actually.
What did you think of "lady washington"? on that horse, would you pay $110,000. for that? someone did in 2005. I think a museum bought it.
When I looked at that one I thought Russian Folk art !! Or done by a Russian immigrant !! No way would I pay that !!
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On the issue of condition in regards fraktur, check out this link, on far left hand column 9 down from the top is lot #341, estimate was $100-$200, basically just a fragment really, sold for $2500.
https://www.pinterest.com/kenscottartist/virginia-fraktur-southern-arts-crafts/
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The old woman is losing it over there with her antique puter equipment! BAM! 9 down from left column is here-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------> http://jeffreysevans.hibid.com/lot/10156124/augusta-co---shenandoah-valley-of-virginia/?q=fraktur&ref=lot-list
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No I just counted everything on the left,,you didn`t say to not count the wooden ware !! Speaking of which,, Did you see that southern pine hanging corner cupboard ?? Now that I like !!
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I didn't notice it till now but yeah, nice one, sold by Pook i see. I'll be interested to see how Pook does with this W&M table, it's a little odd to see that piece at Pook as they specialize in Pa german objects.
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OK, pie safe just sold for $6600. with BP soooooooooooooooooo oooooooooo, i won that guess~timate Mart, i'll be expecting my applaud point anytime now! You still have a shot tomorrow on that W&M piece though!
#2 fraktur went for $1560 with BP
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You`re kidding ?? I would not have thought either one would do that well !! ,,,Yes I gave you your karma point !!
Just goes to show I need to stay with what I know,,late 19th and 20th century furniture !! This stuff is too rich for my blood !
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Nope, no kidding! Safe wasn't a surprise, yeah it was repainted mid 20th century but still, everything else was original, tins, frame and shelves. Fraktur was a surprise, almost 4 times it's high estimate, no thanks! Safe was lot#1 and fraktur #2 so i was gone from sale in like 3 mins!
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Table went unsold!, It didn't meet reserve so that's that! On to NYC this winter i predict! I didn't think Pook was the place for that table, it just isn't their thing.
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How high did the bidding get ??
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30k, 1 bid up from min., it was NEVER a pook piece and there isn't much else to say about it. I am not knocking Pook, it's just that they do not handle that kind of piece. There was only the single bid from the floor, Pook saw there was only 1 bidder and passed it QUICK like a bunny!
I'll give you a karma point if it makes you feel better but if you recall, i said 3 pages back it wasn't a Pook piece! I have been following that table since 2003, it needs to be marketed where it was born, NYC.
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Wow, the pie safe went for $6,600!
These are fun to watch and see what the market is going for! Thanks Jacon4!
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No problem! Glad to bore the forum to death with basically chunks of old wood! Safe IMO was well worth that number, if it wasn't for the recent paint, it woulda gone MUCH higher.
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30k, 1 bid up from min., it was NEVER a pook piece and there isn't much else to say about it. I am not knocking Pook, it's just that they do not handle that kind of piece. There was only the single bid from the floor, Pook saw there was only 1 bidder and passed it QUICK like a bunny!
I'll give you a karma point if it makes you feel better but if you recall, i said 3 pages back it wasn't a Pook piece! I have been following that table since 2003, it needs to be marketed where it was born, NYC.
Yes I remember you saying it was out of their catagory !!