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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: jacon4 on January 17, 2017, 06:01:02 AM
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Well, nothing as spectacular as last year when that painted pilgrim blanket chest sold for over one million bucks, matter of fact, the best early pieces of furniture are not even at Sotheby's or Christies in NYC this year but at Thomaston in Maine. My picks for best early american furniture this year, 2 pilgrim chests of drawers, one at sotheby's and the other at thomaston and, a goddard/townsend chest of drawers at thomason.
Sotheby chest
http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2017/americana-collection-george-s-parker-ii-caxambas-foundation-n09605/lot.2003.html
Thomason chest
https://live.thomastonauction.com/lots/view/1-6ZU1D/important-pilgrim-century-chest-of-drawers
Goddard /Townsend
https://live.thomastonauction.com/lots/view/1-6ZU2H/important-newport-chest
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Naturally, i'll be VERY interested in pilgrim chest of drawer sale price. My view is, neither the Sotheby or Thomason chests can hold a candle to the the "bird" chest which, in my opinion is a masterpiece of early american furniture. Course, since i own the bird chest i guess i am biased but still, if I had a choice between the 3 pilgrim chest of drawers, I'd take the bird chest in a NY min.
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Liking the Pilgrim Chest AND the Bird Chest!!! A couple of beauties.
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I have to admit I REALLY LIKE the Bird Chest. Not just saying that because it's yours Jacon4. It is a style that transcends all styles. The coloring is absolutely gorgeous.
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Jacon4,, You know I am particularly fond of John Goddard/Townsend`s work !! Not that yours isn`t nice as well,, it is !! Just different tastes in furniture !!
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Yeah, I like their stuff too but i am not including their chest as a comparison. It's much later for one thing, aprox 100 years so not really comparable, their best work was in the chippendale era which was last quarter of the 18th century (1770-1800). The goddard chest of drawers is going to sell for a BUNCH! as they are the most celebrated cabinet makers of the 18th century.
I was comparing the sotheby pilgrim chest (not pictured) & the thomaston pilgrim chest of drawers to my pilgrim chest, i'd take mine! Now, if it was a choice between my bird chest and the goddard chest, i'd take goddard because it will sell for over 100k easy, even if it has issues.
I will be watching the 2 pilgrim chest sales though as i am hoping pilgrim makes a comeback on pricing and i will have a smile on my face if either gets to the 40k number that was common for a good pilgrim era chest of drawers before the depression hit the antiques market.
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I cant seem to load a pic of the sotheby pilgrim chest, let me try it this way. Hmmm, didnt work out!
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I saw it on the link you posted !! Its odd that two comparable chests have such different estimates !! The Sotheby chest is 12 to 18K and the Thomaston is 30 to 40K !!
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Its odd that two comparable chests have such different estimates !!
Not really, just different marketing game plans. Sotheby wants as low an estimate as possible to draw in bidders, Christie does this too. Thomaston on the other hand is a MUCH smaller outfit and more of a country type auction house and bases it's estimates on what they think the object will sell for. Although, this year i gotta say, at least for early american furniture, Thomaston has the better offerings. Nice to see the little guy win for a change.
Another thing to keep in mind, reserve, i would bet both chests are within a few thousand of each other on the reserve front.
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As an example, Christie's , in an email to me when discussing the bird chest, offered this example they sold in 2014. It's in Albert Sack "Fine Points of Furniture: Early American" on page 92 and is listed as superior. Naturally, the bird chest is listed on page 93 as a masterpiece and has the entire page all to itself. If you notice, the estimate on this chest is 12-18k, it sold for 40k.
http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/furniture-lighting/a-william-and-mary-walnut-oak-and-5764129-details.aspx?from=searchresults&intObjectID=5764129&sid=7dfbd826-d960-4e0c-8041-31e75c921b15
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Bottom Line? I do not think it really matters how one markets at auction for early american furniture, it's ALWAYS been a crap shoot and probably always will be. And, as they say, it takes at least 2 to tango at auction. On another note, i kinda expected to see that 1731 W&M inlaid table i posted on a couple months ago somewhere in the americana week in NYC but so far it is MIA! I wonder where it got off to as it really is a great example of early colonial New York cabinetmaking.
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Thomaston or Thomason sure does a better job of cataloguing than Sotheby !!
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Thomaston or Thomason sure does a better job of cataloguing than Sotheby !!
Agrees! Yes, the little guys are much better in many ways than the big guns of the auction industry. I guess they have to be if they want to be successful.
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The Sotheby chest sold for 20k yesterday with BP
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Slightly over estimate !! But their cataloging and advertising just doesn`t help the situation !! I tried to see a condition report and couldn`t !! Not that it was within my garage sale budget but I was curious !!
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Yeah, it's there, as little info as possible, feet replaced is all it says which is common on pilgrim pieces
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I was a little disappointed in the 20k number, it was OK but not what i was hoping for. The chest itself had a very "english" look to it, very square/rectangular drawer panels and ditto on the sides. There are no americanized design changes on the sotheby chest at all which may have hurt it price wise. By contrast, look at the side panels of the bird chest, a single raised panel with picture frame type moulding, you do not see that in english chests of that era. Oh well, onto the Thomaston pilgrim chest next week.
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I wondered about those panels on your chest !! Thats the only one I have seen with that type molding !! I think the Thomaston chest will do better but not what is expected !! If so maybe the lower end of that estimate !! Around 32K ?? What do you think ??
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Yes, those single raised panels with picture frame moulding is a very american type adaptation, check out this chest at the Met, eastern shore Mass but not boston, it's very similar to boston bird chest. One thing about this chest that's very rare, original paint which makes it almost priceless. On thomaston pilgrim chest, i guess 30k.
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Let us not forget about that goddard/townsend chippendale chest! is it real? I dunno but if it is real, i'd say its a million dollar chest or damn close! I hate to say this but, if it's real, what's it doing at Thomaston? Thomaston changed bidding process on this chest, no online bidding which tells me, they think it's real.
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You know I am the biggest skeptic in the world !! I start out thinking everything is a fake until I prove to myself it isn`t !! But I can not find a single thing wrong with the Goddard chest !! All looks correct !! I thought the brass lock plate was in an odd place until I saw that the other was a fake lock !! Real lock is on the right side if you are looking at the front of the top drawer !!
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Course, they have been making line by line copies of that shops furniture for almost 100 years now, using the same tools just like in 1770. Thomaston is surely aware of that and am pretty sure they have had someone who is an authority look at it so i am assuming it's real. What is it going to sell for?
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Obviously, it's not signed or labeled so that leaves provenance and attributed to. Naturally, that hurts value so knowing what we know, (very little), i am guessing 265k.
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Well.. they must have some reservations with a $100. to $150.K estimate !! They did not say "attributed to" and stated it as a Goddard/Townsend piece !! But it seems that with a piece like this they would have posted the provenance !!
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No provenance posted, at least not yet but if it was signed they would have said so. I assume it's got a so so provenance, not iron clad and they are probably going with construction details peculiar to those shops in Newport. If it had an impeccable provenance or was signed/labeled it would be far more valuable, in the million dollar category i would think.
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UPDATE: Alrighty then, although personally interested in the pilgrim chest above for purely monetary reasons, it's the goddard/townsend chest that is the real star here. It's on sale a week from today, next Sat and bidsquare has some new info.
"18th c. Townsend & Goddard Block and Shell Mahogany Chippendale Chest, circa 1770, Newport, Rhode Island, raised on fine ogee feet, retaining what appear to be the original brasses, 32- 1/2" H x 38- 1/2" x 20- 1/4", old refinish. LITERATURE - Accompanied by a copy of "The Arts and Crafts of Newport, Rhode Island, 1640-1820", by Ralph Carpenter. Personally inscribed by Carpenter to Leo Wilensky with his reaction to seeing this shell carved block front chest. Also included is a copy of an April, 1980 appraisal by Christie's Appraisals, Inc."
This chest has been known and in the Leo Wilensky collection since at least since 1980 and examined by scholars as well as Christie's so, looks like this is the real deal if one is interested in getting a piece from this families famous 18th century workshop.
I am sticking with my 265k estimate on this chest even though i don't know the full story on it, mainly because it appears real and how often does a chest by these cabinetmakers come up for sale? like almost never! bidsquare listing on this chest at the link.
http://auctions.bidsquare.com/view-auctions/catalog/id/2100/lot/720221/thomaston-place-auction-galleries-important-newport-chest?url=%2Fview-auctions%2Fcatalog%2Fid%2F2100%3Fpage%3D5&utm_source=Bidsquare+Mailing+List&utm_campaign=17807b64a1-Thomaston_winter-feature_2017_2_SaleEmail&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_e7569126a5-17807b64a1-222436661
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Mmmm.. Think I will go $325K !! Sounds good so far !!
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Mmmm.. Think I will go $325K !! Sounds good so far !!
You know we love you Mart, but would we pay $325K for you?? ???
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Winner gets a karma! I got 30k on pilgrim and 265k on chippendale. What Thomas Dennis is to the 17th century, Goddard/ Townsend is to the 18th century. They basically took a design feature that had been around for decades (block front) and added alternating carved concave/convex shells and BAM! a masterpiece was born.
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Mmmm.. Think I will go $325K !! Sounds good so far !!
You know we love you Mart, but would we pay $325K for you?? ???
LOL !! Only if my sandy land farm came with it !! :D
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lol, we could be way off here even using play money. It would not surprise me if this chest went for 2 or 3 times our estimates, it's that rare and a very special piece of americana and, it's not like a piece like this comes to market often. So, if one is in the market for a piece like this, it's probably now or not in your lifetime that another one will come along.
Bottom line? Mart! DON'T bet your farm on this one, you could very well lose!
BTW, according to Mary May of Charleston SC, a nationally known carver, those shells are not easy to carve, far from it.
"These Newport shells are not very easy to carve. When you start to carve the concave and convex secions, there are some tremendous grain difficulties – especially if the wood itself is not clean and straight grained. I would recommend trying it in basswood first, just to get the technique down. And… I do use sandpaper on this to finish the final surface. Just be careful not to round over any of the sharp edges of the little ledge that is carved."
Happy Carving!
https://www.marymaycarving.com/blog/2011/11/17/carving-the-convex-newport-shell/
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THAT, is a hell of a lot of work to decorate a block front, the block front itself isn't exactly a piece of cake either. I would add that only the concave shell (center shell) is carved directly into the drawer front itself, the convex shells (left/right shells) are carved with a separate piece of wood and then attached to the drawer front. So, don't mess up that center shell or you need a whole new drawer front!
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I am well aware of that grain problem !! My granddad could carve anything with his trusty pocket knife !! I tried but mine looked like a two year old with a chainsaw carved it !! Of course my knife was not nearly as sharp as his was !!
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Could grandad carve this with a pocket knife?
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No don`t think the knife would have been sharp enough for that !! He did a heck of a bobble head turtle though !!
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He did a heck of a bobble head turtle though !!
LOL, I bet he did!
I don't think it's known who it was in the goddard/townsend families that was a master carver or how this shell decoration came about but one thing for sure, it was a huge hit on block front furniture. It transformed the block front, which was/is a very difficult build by itself, demanding the highest level of woodworking skill, into an art form.
There are some who say that the Chippendale style is just Queen Anne with a bunch of carving slathered on it but i say that's nonsense. I say Chippendale is rococo and folks who disparage the chippendale style just don't like rococo furniture, simple as that.
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OK, today is the day that the old woman could lose her farm! I'll post prices on pilgrim & chippendale chest later today. It's me against the old woman on price prediction and, i plan on winning!
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LOL !! I said $32K on pilgrim and $325K on Goddard/Townsend !!
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OK, pilgrim went for 18k, chippendale chest was passed!
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18K ?? Is good furniture down that much ?? How high did the Goddard get before it passed ??
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50k, which is low. If you remember the pilgrim chest in NYC last month sold for 20k, was in line with that number. 2 years ago in NYC at christies a pilgrim chest sold for 40k so, bottom line, auctions are a crap shoot. Still, no offence to Thomaston but both these pieces should have been listed in NYC with the big boys.
BTW, you owe me a karma, i estimated 30k on pilgrim and you were 32
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Sounds like you both fizzled out on the guessing game this time! 😮
The stock market may be up...but antiques are going up with them at this time!
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Sounds like you both fizzled out on the guessing game this time!
Hey, It HAPPENS with early american furniture, no doubt! Still, the old woman LOST on the pilgrim thingy but , it could have been worse, she coulda lost her FARM!
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Jacon4
Hey, It HAPPENS with early american furniture, no doubt! Still, the old woman LOST on the pilgrim thingy but , it could have been worse, she coulda lost her FARM!
Thank goodness she didn't lose the farm....I need her support here in the South! :)
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Sounds like you both fizzled out on the guessing game this time! 😮
The stock market may be up...but antiques are going up with them at this time!
Really? I hope you're right.
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Really? I hope you're right.
Yeah, me too!
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Whoops....2 really necessary three letter words were missed during the speedy typing by my fingers - it should have read:
The stock market may be up...but ALL antiques are NOT going up with them at this time!
Golly, I wish my statement had such bearing on the antiques market! (http://www.antique-shop.com/forums/Smileys/akyhne/grin.gif)
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Yeah, i was gonna say. The thing is, the top 10% & the bottom 10% sell very well and pretty much always do, it's the middle market which is aprox 80% of the market that suffers in a down turn.
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Yeah, i was gonna say. The thing is, the top 10% & the bottom 10% sell very well and pretty much always do, it's the middle market which is aprox 80% of the market that suffers in a down turn.
Sadly, I just went to a fairly high end Victorian auction, and alot of the prices were atrociously low.