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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: ghopper1924 on August 07, 2017, 12:24:36 PM
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Hey all:
I purchased this large piece in southern Illinois over the weekend. I know very little about Victorian needlework, but I liked this piece.
So: I assume this is American. Any ideas about date? What kind of needlework is this? Are the piece and the frame approximately the same age?
I like the walnut frame as much as the needlework. The frame is 23" wide x 27" high. The dimensions of the piece are about 17.5" wide x 21.5" high, but probably slightly larger to account for the frame. The original wood backing has been replaced by cardboard. I do not see any sign of initials or a name.
So, here are my guesses (and that's all they are). American, ca. 1870, replacement value $150.
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The frame is a later addition,, more 1940`s,, which is probably why the cardboard backing is there !! Not unusual for families to re-frame needlework since styles changed !!
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I believe you have a Victorian crewel needlepoint of a pheasant on a Jacobean Flower Tree.
These needle work pieces were popular for pictures and pillows - but were actually used on many items in the 1700's (such as bed coverings/canopy bed covering, etc.)
Is there any way to see the back side of the stitching? Just need to see if it is hand stitched or machine stitched. The piece looks so "perfect"...
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I believe you have a Victorian needlepoint of a pheasant on a Jacobean Flower Tree.
These needle work pieces were popular for pictures and pillows.
Is there any way to see the back side of the stitching?
Victorian needlepoint of a pheasant with a Jacobean Flower Tree?
How would you date that?
I can tell you that the colors and stitching methods are used throughout, not just for the pheasant.
I looked at the back, and the cardboard is held on with a series of very old nails (no staples :)). It would be extremely time consuming to get the back off.
Folks on the "other" site believe it's a "new" piece (1940s-1960s) in a Victorian frame. I know there was an interest in "Ye olde Early American" back then, but somehow, like KC, I believe this needlework is old.
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uh ohhhhhhh, already posted it on other site huh, a competitor! bad mo jo! Mart says they treated her rough over there.
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Yep, I've been posting (most) everything on both sites, hoping for a maximum amount of input.
Funny, one person posted that it's a newer piece in an old frame, another that it's an older piece in a new frame. KC has had the most interesting answer so far, but she usually only gets on at night, so I'm waiting with baited breath.
Nobody's been rough yet, but things can always go south.
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well, i'll end up being about the same there as here as far as posting. no one on these forums collects my stuff and its very rare to see someone inquire about early furniture.
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Older needlework,,newer frame !!
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Older needlework,,newer frame !!
But exactly how old?
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When I put that "the piece looks so "perfect" I am afraid that I am not meaning that it definitely shows that it is an older piece (1700's to mid/late 1800's). There were pieces of beautiful handiwork over the years....but I would have to see the back of the piece to determine in fact if it is "handmade" or "machined".
There are individuals "out there" that have embroidery done, using older threads on older material pieces...but a great place to start is 1) info from a seller, 2) proof of origin and/or 3)the "finishing work" done on the back side that isn't normally seen.
It does appear that the frame is newer than the handiwork.
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My guess on the needlework would be around 1900 to about 1920 !! It was done for decorative purposes rather than as a learning experience like a sampler !!
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Thanks for the comments!
OK, I wouldn't do this for anyone but KC, but I pulled the nails out of the back and took the backing off. The linen is folded in on each side. Was it common to make a piece a bit bigger to fit whatever frame was at hand? Clearly whoever did this knew it was going to be in a big frame.
So OK, here are pictures of the back. Any further opinions on date?
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Chances are that was just the size of the material at hand !! Now that you have shown the back,,its possible the frame is also from 1900 to 1920 !! Patina of wood is about right !! However they usually would have a more ornate pattern or trim on the frame !! Plain frames were not common back then !! My feeling is that it was still framed or re-framed later !!
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But exactly how old?
86 years, 3 months, 5 days and counting!
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Sounds about right..... :D
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Is your thread silk? embroidery floss (glossy cotton)? or wool? That helps date a piece! Just from what I see...I can't tell if it is floss or silk...but leaning towards floss.
Okay...my opinion...you have a piece that is machine stitched - with possibly some hand stitching added. That being said...I believe it was possibly from very late 1800's to early 1900's in origin because later machine stitching they learned to save the colored thread and the back feeding piece was white thread. Embroidery machines were made as early as 1828!
Hand stitchers typically didn't use that much thread on the back side due to cost (unless it was a piece made to be viewed from both sides as in a fireplace - and by-the-way with as much material as you have on yours it could have been for a fireplace screen or bedding!) Look at the prices for some of these fireplace screens! https://www.1stdibs.com/furniture/more-furniture-collectibles/home-accents/screens-room-dividers/english-rosewood-needlepoint-fire-screen-circa-1840/id-f_1056526/?utm_content=test&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI8pDz_NLK1QIVFCOBCh2PzgQjEAQYAiABEgKSY_D_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds (https://www.1stdibs.com/furniture/more-furniture-collectibles/home-accents/screens-room-dividers/english-rosewood-needlepoint-fire-screen-circa-1840/id-f_1056526/?utm_content=test&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI8pDz_NLK1QIVFCOBCh2PzgQjEAQYAiABEgKSY_D_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds)
Take a read of these two articles and look at your pieces closely. Tell me what you think after you read then examine your piece.
https://www.needlenthread.com/2015/02/hand-embroidery-vs-machine-embroidery-difference.html (https://www.needlenthread.com/2015/02/hand-embroidery-vs-machine-embroidery-difference.html)
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OK, thanks for the thoughtful comments.
Excellent articles, and even better prices on those fireplace screens! :)
I don't really know the difference between embroidery floss and silk, but this seems a bit less "shiny" than silk, while being a bit brighter than most embroidery that you see from back then.
KC, your evaluation of machine made with a bit of handwork thrown in and the reasons why makes sense.
In the meantime, I've been doing research on frames. This frame, although less elaborated than some, still features significant (almost shadow box) depth, walnut burl panels, gilt, and ebonized sections. From what I can tell there's no reason to think that this frame couldn't date to 1880-1900 or so, as these features are commonly found in pier mirrors and other such furniture of the time. Perhaps a somewhat "plain" frame was desired to better show off the crewel work within.
This piece is pretty large, and so is the frame. It's interesting to think that the piece may have been intended to be a fireplace screen.
So now the kicker: Does $150 replacement value sound realistic? Higher? Lower?
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I might add that the Jacobean Tree of Life is done beautifully and if you search "embroidery tree of life" or "embroidery Jacobean Tree of Life" you will see several varieties - but not as centered and elegantly done as yours. You will note that if you select to view "images" on these that MAJORITY are collected on Pinterest!
PEOPLE LOVE THIS STYLE AND STILL PRIZE IT!
If it was me and I wanted to have an insurance value I would easily put it at $200 - $300 due to the size, condition, etc.
The size still makes me think of fire screen
Here's one that sold ebay from TEXAS http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Oak-Summer-Fireplace-screen-Crewel-Embroidery-Jacobean-Lk-Elsa-Willians-/253070387924?hash=item3aec2baad4:g:BSEAAOSwt7pXNooX (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Oak-Summer-Fireplace-screen-Crewel-Embroidery-Jacobean-Lk-Elsa-Willians-/253070387924?hash=item3aec2baad4:g:BSEAAOSwt7pXNooX)
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Looks like typical embroidery floss to me !!
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Thanks....good stuff!!
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Embroidery floss will outlive everyone !!