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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: jacon4 on September 11, 2017, 01:33:40 PM
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I had always assumed that oak secondary wood on early furniture was NOT American and, generally speaking that is correct. However, as is usual with very old furniture there are ALWAYS exceptions to these rules as new research emerges to challenge the conventional theories.
It is now known that at least one area in the american colonies did use oak as a secondary wood in furniture building in the years 1700-1740. That area is the Delaware River Valley and includes, Southeastern Pennsylvania, Philadelphia-Camden-Wilmington, PA-NJ-DE-MD.
I found this table that is up for sale this week & i think it's american, C. 1710-1730, built somewhere in the valley, probably Philly area.
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more pics
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last ones
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Well,, its definitely not an English piece !! And I do not see anything wrong with the form ect,, !! All looks right !! Oak was one of the most common woods,, could it be a little later ?? You know the closer to 1800 the more oak was used ??
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No, don't think any other colonies/areas used oak in secondary wood furniture construction, it was like they came out of the pilgrim period ( where everything was oak, primary & secondary) and they wanted nothing more to do with oak till 1900. And, it's a fairly small area we are talking about here where oak was used at all and they only used oak secondary here between 1700-1740.
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A couple points that come to mind about this oak "thing" in 1700 america. First off, joiners were losing their grip on the furniture trade, cabinetmakers were now dominate. Another thing is, joiners when making furniture were working with "green" oak which is fairly easy to carve, plane, etc, when "wet". On the other hand, oak that has been dried to say 10-15% moisture content which is preferred by cabinetmakers is notoriously HARD and difficult to work & tough on tools as well.
This is all pure speculation on my part, i have no evidence to back up these guesses.
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No, don't think any other colonies/areas used oak in secondary wood furniture construction,
Now iffen that table is “C. 1710-1730, built somewhere in the valley”, …… then there is a slight possibility of mistaken identity, to wit:
American pioneers commonly used chestnut wood to build furniture. This was partly due to the abundance of chestnut trees in eastern part of the country and partly due to the fact that the wood was easy to work with. Chestnut is easily sanded and it looks excellent with just about any finish. Antique American chestnut furniture is highly desirable and difficult to find in its original condition and finish.
http://www.furniture-refinishing-guide.com/articles/chestnut-furniture/ (http://www.furniture-refinishing-guide.com/articles/chestnut-furniture/)
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oak that has been dried to say 10-15% moisture content which is preferred by cabinetmakers is notoriously HARD and difficult to work & tough on tools as well.
Right you are, ...... it will take the "edge" off of the bestest steel blades and/or drill bits.
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Now iffen that table is “C. 1710-1730, built somewhere in the valley”, …… then there is a slight possibility of mistaken identity, to wit:
No, don't think so, with chestnut lumber, the "rays" are not visible except with a microscope. In second post, second photo down of back of drawer, look at those "rays" or figure in that wood, very little doubt that it's white oak.
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Well,, the oak in this table was surely not green when the table was made !! Would have likely fell apart by now due to the shrinkage after drying !! Joints are good and tight here !! Is there any provenance with this table ??
I am not familiar with Chestnut grain,, but this is oak secondary wood !!
Another thing about attributing furniture to any particular area,, I think they just used whatever they had that would work with that application !! I am not sure that any of the makers really thought twice about what would not be seen !! And they would follow what those before them had done over the years !! Change did not come easily !!
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Well,, the oak in this table was surely not green when the table was made !! Would have likely fell apart by now due to the shrinkage after drying !!
Not if it was "riven" or split when green. Oak that is riven is split along it's natural "radial plane" and is incredibly stable, even after centuries. Oak doesn't split, crack , check or shrink when it's riven "green" and "joined" with "draw bore" mortise & tenon joints as was done for centuries in furniture building.
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Alrighty then!Last Friday, I fired off an email complete with pics & info i had gathered to Christopher Storb, who is the Dietrich American Foundation Project Conservator at the Philadelphia Museum of Art. I just got an email back from Chris and according to him
Dear James,
Thank you for sending me the images of the table. Oak was definitely used as a secondary wood in the Delaware River Valley though it was not as prominent as the hard pines and, after 1740, yellow poplar. While it would be somewhat surprising to see oak used on what might be considered a Pennsylvania German table, it would not be completely out of the question.
I really can’t say much about an objects authentication without examining it in person. In the close-up views it does seem to be made of walnut and some of the elements seem to have the appearances associated with historic objects though I would question if that could be said about the top from what I can see viewing the images. Tables with easily removable tops are notorious for turning up with the top missing or replaced.
The Philadelphia Museum of Art owns a splay leg table of this form. It has been illustrated numerous times over the years and is plate no. 4 of the tables section in the museum’s publicationThe Pennsylvania German Collection. It has been reproduced hundreds of times yet it turned out to be a clever forgery made up of parts of old furniture in an attempt to deceive. It is such a beloved form and desired by collectors that I am wary of any similar tables.
Best,
Chris
And, here is the fake table that Chris mentions which is probably quietly stashed in the basement of museum in Philly
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No, don't think so, with chestnut lumber, the "rays" are not visible except with a microscope. In second post, second photo down of back of drawer, look at those "rays" or figure in that wood, very little doubt that it's white oak.
Right you are again, ........ didn't know what the quarter-sawn chestnut looked like, To wit:
All species of trees have rays but they vary in size. In chestnut, the rays are small and cannot be seen with the naked eye. In the oaks, the rays are very wide and thus are readily visible to the naked eye.
Both oaks and chestnut are ring-porous – they have bands of large earlywood pores. In oak (left)[upper picture], the rays are clearly visible as light-colored lines oriented perpendicular to the growth rings. In chestnut (right) [lower picture], the rays are narrow and cannot be seen with the naked eye.
Ref: http://web.utk.edu/~mtaylo29/pages/Identifying%20Chestnut.htm (http://web.utk.edu/~mtaylo29/pages/Identifying%20Chestnut.htm)
(http://web.utk.edu/~mtaylo29/pages/Identifying%20Chestnut_clip_image002.jpg)
(http://web.utk.edu/~mtaylo29/pages/Identifying%20Chestnut_clip_image004.jpg)
Cheers, Sam C
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Enjoying this thread! :) Afraid I don't have anything to offer for insight. Really like the table!!!!
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Enjoying this thread! :) Afraid I don't have anything to offer for insight. Really like the table!!!!
Well, it's early but more important, it's "splay" legged which, Chris correctly states, coveted by collectors because they are rare. My feeling on this table is, it's a period PA table with a replaced top. If i can get it for the right price, consider it done! If the top is not original, that kills the deal for many collectors and price reduction as well. I am not that picky and very accepting of 300 year old pieces, very few of which have no issues, it's the form i want, i don't have one!
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KC, I enjoy the “historical” trivia, such as:
“The American chestnut once comprised 25% or more of the Native Eastern
Hardwood Forest.” American Scientist (1988)
“Chestnut was perhaps the most widespread and abundant species in the
Eastern United States since the last glaciation.” USDA Forest Service Southern
Research Station.
Along with the bison and the passenger pigeon, the American chestnut forms an iconic triumvirate of the grandeur of the American wilderness and the devastation that human activity wrought upon it over the
past three centuries. Just as the bison was the preeminent large mammal on the continent and the passenger pigeon the most abundant bird, so is chestnut often described as having dominated the eastern forest (or across its geographic range) prior to its destruction by an introduced Asian chestnut blight.
Read more @ http://highstead.net/pdfs/2014-72-2-american-chestnut.pdf (http://highstead.net/pdfs/2014-72-2-american-chestnut.pdf)
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Yeah, the Chestnut trees came to a sad end, after they caught the blight within a few years, they were all gone.
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Enjoying this thread! :) Afraid I don't have anything to offer for insight. Really like the table!!!!
Well, it's early but more important, it's "splay" legged which, Chris correctly states, coveted by collectors because they are rare. My feeling on this table is, it's a period PA table with a replaced top. If i can get it for the right price, consider it done! If the top is not original, that kills the deal for many collectors and price reduction as well. I am not that picky and very accepting of 300 year old pieces, very few of which have no issues, it's the form i want, i don't have one!
Not a good view but I do not think the top is a replacement !! The entire table just fits too well !! Properly balanced,, top is proper size for the form !! Personally I think its all original !! Still not sure its quite that early but I would buy it !! On the other hand,, that table from the museum I would not touch with a 10 foot pole !! Just look at it,, its one of the least graceful tables I have ever seen !!
Now to the green oak debate,, I don`t care how many pegs, pins you put in green oak,, it still will shrink and you can see it in those dovetails !! I mean that moisture has to go somewhere,, it does not stay in the wood unless it is sealed in some way !! This one is as it should be,, wood cured and all joints fit and are tight !! Drawbore joinery just makes it more stable for years of use !! It keeps the joints from shifting which will cause them to become loose over time !!
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I mean that moisture has to go somewhere,, it does not stay in the wood unless it is sealed in some way !!
Yes, eventually the oak dries out but, if it was riven along it's natural plane, and i know this sounds weird, it is incredibly stable and it stays that way virtually forever. Look at some of the chests & wooden objects at Marhamchurch, some of them are 500 years old, the joinery is as tight today as it was the day it was built. I bought a stool about 5 years ago built by Peter Folandsbee, resident joiner at Plymouth Plantation, it was built from riven wet oak just the same way joiners did in 1500 and with the same tools, it has not split, cracked,cupped, checked, or shrunk in almost 5 years now. The only difference i can tell is, it's quite a bit lighter from drying today than when it arrived wet 5 years ago. If you build furniture with green, wet riven oak, it is virtually indestructible. The only thing that can damage it is, bugs & fire. It is weird i know but, it is what it is!
https://www.marhamchurchantiques.com/
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I am going to visit this table personally TODAY! it's only 100 miles away so not far. Dad on the hunt, may the force be with me!
And guess what? the old woman doesn't know as much about oak as she thought she did!!! now go to the corner and sit on your stool!!!
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I don`t care how many pegs, pins you put in green oak,, it still will shrink and you can see it in those dovetails !!
Mart, as you probably already know, the ole-timer chair builders depended on the oak “shrinking” to prevent their chairs from falling apart.
For descriptive purposes ONLY, please refer to this chair, to wit:
(https://i.pinimg.com/236x/92/56/2d/92562d31bdeee5634d8701f8efc12124--kitchen-chairs-kitchen-dining.jpg)
Please note the chair legs and spindles,
In ole-time chair building, the legs would be fashioned out of “green” oak and the spindles would be fashioned out of dry “seasoned” oak with a per se “ball” carved on either end of the spindle.
A hole, the same diameter as the spindle “ball” would be drilled into the chair legs and the spindle “balls” would be inserted into their respective leg “holes” and the chair was set aside to “dry out”.
And after the chair legs dried out, the wood shrunk up so tight around the spindle “balls” that it was damn near impossible to remove the spindle without breaking it. ;D
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(Reply #10) Not if it was "riven" or split when green. Oak that is riven is split along it's natural "radial plane"
Just as I figured, your use of the word “riven” to describe the “split” lumber is the same as using the word “quartersawn” to describe “sawed” lumber.
To wit, all that you need to know about “wood shrinkage”:
As a general rule of thumb for most species, the tangential shrinkage is roughly double that of the radial shrinkage, which translates to an average T/R ratio of about 2.
This helps explain why quartersawn boards are considered more stable than flatsawn boards: with quartersawn lumber, the thickness of the board is doing the majority of the shrinking or swelling, with the face of the board exhibiting minimal change in width—a useful characteristic for applications such as flooring planks or workbench tops.
Source: http://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/dimensional-shrinkage/ (http://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/dimensional-shrinkage/)
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To get a better idea of how furniture was built out of riven oak here is a short piece by peter follandsbee that describes the differences in how oak is processed. This was the way furniture was built for centuries until cabinetmakers came along in the 18th century. The fact that a lot of 500 year old riven oak furniture is still around in europe today is proof of it's durability and strength, VERY tough stuff.
https://pfollansbee.wordpress.com/2009/10/18/theres-oak-then-theres-riven-oak/
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Cogar, i feel like i am beating a dead horse here, yes, of course there will be shrinkage but you can't see it! It's like looking for "rays" or figure on chestnut lumber, unless you have a microscope handy, it AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN!
Here is a longer article by peter about how this oak is processed for those interested
https://www.popularwoodworking.com/article/the-best-oak-money-cant-buy
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This helps explain why quartersawn boards are considered more stable than flatsawn boards
Yes, but RIVEN oak is MUCH more stable than quarter sawed plus it has MUCH more figure or "rays" in the finished boards. To fully understand the differences in how this works, you gotta study how this timber was processed way back when. It's a long lost art of woodworking with only a very few people in the world that process timber this way.
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http://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/wood-and-moisture/
Jacon4,, go back and read the part of the popular woodworking article where it says, "Now Wait" !! Both articles you gave just prove what I was saying,, wood will shrink !! Its inevitable !! The amount of shrinkage depends on many things as well as what you are going to use it for !! Keep in mind I am not talking about kiln dried wood !!
Where were all these woodworkers when I was burning oak in my fireplace !! I could have made a fortune !! Had 150 acres and 70% was white,,red and pin oak !!
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Both articles you gave just prove what I was saying,, wood will shrink !!
:o ??? ::) :P Sigh, ugh. Yes, wood shrinks, it's organic. The point i was TRYING to make that 99.9% of people who are not familiar with this material do not understand is, old growth riven oak is more like stone than wood. Take this new riven oak stool i bought, when it first came it was very heavy & smelled like freshly cut trees, 5 years later the smell is gone & it's much lighter from drying out, aside from that? zero! nuttin! zilch! nada! And, if i had a micrometer it would probably measure that some shrinkage had occurred however, YOU CAN'T SEE THAT SHRINKAGE with your naked eye, hello?
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Didn't i put Martha on her stool earlier today? The old woman is trying to kill my buzz from the visit i made today to the splay leg table i am interested in.
OK, some observations, the left rear stretcher is blown out, not totally disconnected but almost, the top i now feel could be original to the piece which would be wonderful. Someone shot modern staples underneath the top at the point where the boards meet, perhaps in a clumsy attempt to keep them together. Other than that, which both above items are restorable, table is right as rain! The owner of the auction helped me remove the top & turn table upside down and in general was very accommodating to my examination. The bad news? Auction owner is putting off sale for 1 week, instead of this Sat. as originally scheduled, it's the following Sat, the 23rd because of hurricane Irma. He has lots of clients on the coast, Charleston & Savannah for instance, that were impacted by the storm. I HATE IT! I have to wait another week, more time for someone to discover the treasure i have found and snatch it away from poor ol' dad!
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Quoting Jakon from Post #22 and #24:
The fact that a lot of 500 year old riven oak furniture is still around in europe today is proof of it's durability and strength,
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Yes, but RIVEN oak is MUCH more stable than quarter sawed plus it has MUCH more figure or "rays" in the finished boards.
To fully understand the differences in how this works, you gotta study how this timber was processed way back when.
Jakon, I think you are overlooking the fact that the European furniture “makers” of 500 years ago had their choice of extremely large “virgin” oak timber logs, ....... which were also extremely “straight grained”, ….. and thus quite easy to “split” (riven) into “workable” size boards or lumber.
And the “raven” lumber of yester year (500 years ago) was not actually more figural (with visible “rays”) than today’s lumber from similar size trees, …… the fact is the furniture “makers” of 500 years ago could easily “select” the split (raven) boards that displayed the most “figural” patterns.
The other fact is that large “virgin” timber logs with a diameter greater than 40” or 50” will produce far, far more “raven” lumber for choosing from ….. than will logs of 30” or less in diameter.
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Great info in this thread! Beautiful table and it looks to be in great condition. Good score Jacon4!
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http://www.hardwooddistributors.org/blog/postings/what-is-the-difference-between-quarter-sawn-rift-sawn-and-plain-sawn-lumber/
Look at the diagram here for those interested in the cutting methods !!
Ahhh Ha !! What did I say about the table jacon4 ?? The old woman has not completely lost it yet !!
Hope you get this one Jacon4 !!
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Look at the diagram here for those interested in the cutting methods !!
Yeah, but with riven, there is no cutting, except when you fell the tree!
And, who gave you permission to get off that stool! BAM!
Hope you get this one Jacon4 !!
Me too, was hoping storm was gonna help me! no go though. If i lose it, i will blame Irma!
Good score Jacon4!
Well, not yet! Irma has decided to put a hold on that lil conquest!
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Look at the diagram here for those interested in the cutting methods !!
Thanks Mart, ....... I didn't know about the "rift sawn" lumber.
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Cogar,,I knew the method but not what it was called !!
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Yeah, Irma has been tough. My daughter was evacuated with Texas/Harvey 2 weeks ago (but her home is safe). My son was evacuated for Florida/Irma last week (the 6th n 7th floors had flooding of the condos from the rain coming thru windows/doors with 3 - 5" in hallways. No electricity expected until next week.) Bottom line - they are safe and that is all that matters!
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Glad they are all OK !! I have something I need you to look at KC !! Let me get the link and post it !!
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UPDATE: i won the table that started this thread yesterday, $800 including BP, i was lucky on this one i think.
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Congrats!
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UPDATE: i won the table that started this thread yesterday, $800 including BP, i was lucky on this one i think.
$800. ?? No you stole that table !! Glad you got it !! I figured it would go for quite a bit more !!
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Yeah, does feel a bit like stealing, the stars all aligned for me on this one, country auction in the boonies, the hurricanes, auction peeps not familiar with that type object, bla bla bla. I was lucky! the early furniture gods smiled upon me yesterday but, there have been plenty of days when they crushed me.
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LOL !! And depressed me since I did not find one thing to complain about on this table !! :D Its a good one !!
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Yeah, is. There might have been another factor, the first lot out of the box yesterday, lot # 1 was a jug, hammer was 44k & with BP total was $55000. It could be that everyone was there for Dave!
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/55769090_exceptional-edgefield-stoneware-signed-dave-jug
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Nice jug !!
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I guess but 55K? I learned it's because Dave signed his stuff, sometimes with poetry & was a slave in south carolina who worked as a potter. It could be everyone at that auction was there for DAVE! & simply not interested in some old table.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Drake_(potter)
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Nice table, and great jug...but 25% buyers premium? When will the point be reached that buyers decide to stay home rather than being "taxed" for the privilege of spending money? I'm lucky to live in an area where auctions that charge a premium are a rarity.
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Nice table, and great jug...but 25% buyers premium?
Actually, it's worse than that unless you attend in person & pay cash or check.
20% BP
5% online sale fee
8% local sales tax
3% credit/debit card use fee
Naturally i paid the whole 9 yards above so $600 hammer with all the fees added came to $829.44
So really in effect 38% if you pay all the fees.
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Congratulations on your gain! I know you are a happy puppy!
Wow, that much for a jug? I can just see someone walking and accidentally tripping! 😟
I have to say that I am VERY upset with you Jacon4 tho... I try my best to stay away from the liveauctioneers site because I can spend endless time browsing all the items for sale. And, I made the mistake of looking at the jug, then couldn't resist looking some more. 😖
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Jacon, you can be my furniture "go to" every time! Learned a lot from reading your posts - thank you!
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Thanks! glad to see someone who reads it.