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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: jondar on December 22, 2017, 11:12:34 AM
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Hello everybody. Does anybody here have some knowledge regarding old Indian hand tools? We are going to have to get rid of a bunch of stuff and I have no idea where to price them.
The larger axe I found in the ford of a stream in the old Ft. Leavenworth - Fort Scott road while hunting for Civil War artifacts, the site being part of the Battle of Mine Creek one of the last battles of the CW. Both of the axes appear to be some form of granite. The smaller one, while appearing rough is smooth as glass.
The larger one, on one side, has the indent to hold with the finger tips while holding the axe in the palm of the hand . Any comments or info would be appreciated. On this same site we have found some beautiful arrow points and minie balls, buttons, coins, and other mementos of that period.
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The bottom piece while may look like an ax is actually a war club !! Intended for smashing skulls not cutting anything !! The top one looks more like a skinning knife intended to be held in the palm of the hand !! What I am not seeing on the top piece is where the blade is worked or flaked !! Maybe a close pic of both sides please ?? I collected Native American artifacts for years,, then I got a divorce and they went with the ex !!
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Mart, that surprises me about the "war club". I've had that for about 20 some years and when I first got it I had thought about finding a growing sapling, cutting a slot in it and letting the tree grow around it. Wish now that I did. I'll try for better pictures tomorrow and post. The top of the big one is flaked (crudely) to a dull cutting edge.
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IMLO, the larger item is EITHER ……. just a rock that was shaped by Mother Nature ….. or ….. an unfinished/discarded piece of stone that was intended to be a “hand ax” or “ax head” when napping was completed.
Stone tools are nigh onto impossible to “date” unless one (collector, researcher, expert) recognizes something about its shape, size, composition, etc., that is associated with a specific culture.
A fer instance is, ….. the Clovis Point(s), to wit:
(https://forums.arrowheads.com/media/kunena/attachments/399/image_2013-12-13-4.jpg)
Note the dates on the above picture .... which is proof that the original "immigrants" to the Americas had/have been "expert" flint nappers for thousands of years.
ps: the notation on the picture ..... Cal BP ....... means ..... Calendar year Before Present
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Take a look at a few of these pics...sure see how it could be a war club! You might want to reconsider and sell it - they are worth a bit!
(https://img1.etsystatic.com/143/0/5594060/il_570xN.1175432725_bkf0.jpg)
https://www.etsy.com/listing/494031954/vintage-native-american-grooved-stone
Collection of war clubs
(http://www.ninepipesmuseum.org/images/weapons/NinepipesMuseum_ClubHeads_sm.jpg)
(http://www.ninepipesmuseum.org/images/weapons/NinepipesMuseum_WarClubs_sm.jpg)
http://www.ninepipesmuseum.org/weapons.html (http://www.ninepipesmuseum.org/weapons.html)
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The following site has artifacts that can be sorted by origin / location.
http://www.ketartifacts.com/product-category/artifacts/axes-celts-pestles/ (http://www.ketartifacts.com/product-category/artifacts/axes-celts-pestles/)
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What I am familiar with is the Caddo culture !! And there can be differences from one area to another !! Cogar may be right about the top item but here they sometimes used a large flaked piece if it would do the job they needed to accomplish !! They also would rough in items rather than carrying large pieces of flint from camp to camp or as they hunted !! Not all native Americans were expert flint knappers !! At many of the camp sites where there was a large population you would find maybe one or two areas where there was a huge amount of flint chips of varying sizes !1 We assume the expert knappers then traded with others in the camp and with other tribes for what was needed !! We have found points made of obsidian and there is none in this area !! Most just call them trade points when they are found outside of the natural geological location of the stone !!
A friend was hunting Sulphur River and found a stunning 6 in. white quartz knife !! Odd thing is it was shaped identical to many knives used by trappers and others of later time !! Have yet to figure that one out !!
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I certainly would like to see photos from a few more angles of each object.
The one object (smaller) could be an axe as such:
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/16462576_a-native-american-indian-stone-axe-head-2
I'm not quite sure about the second object (larger) from the picture.
After reading about Fort Leavenworth, the Indian tribe could be Kansa or Kawi. And, I re-emphasize could be.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Leavenworth
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaw_people
Kaw tribal lands, ca. 1820 appeared as follows:
(http://)
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Photos not cooperating!
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Grrrr
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The one object (smaller) could be an axe as such:
“an axe as such” …. is close, …… but not accurate.
Flint or obsidian axes are for cutting and chopping and therefore are made with a “sharp” edge.
Stone hammers and war clubs are made for pounding, breaking bones and smashing shuls and therefore are made with a narrow “round” edge for breaking arm and leg bones and a wide “front” face for pounding and bashing heads. They are made “thick” and ”bulky” like, not only for the “force of impact”, but simply because they would fracture and/or break too easily if any part was made “thin” and ”narrow”.
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I would like to re-state the fact that flint, obsidian and stone tools can not be “dated” unless it is a known fact as to who produced the item.
Such items found in stream or river channels can not be dated, so choose a date of your choice.
Most all such “tool” finds are radiocarbon “dated” which means that the carbon content of the dead biomass remnants that the “tool” was found in close proximity too is actually what is being dated, NOT the “tool” itself.
Keep in mind, that same “tool” could have been made 1,000 years earlier and the last person to use it was where it was most recently found.
And another thing to keep in mind, and that is, there is a BIG, BIG problem with the generally accepted theory or claim about the “origin” of the first human immigrants into the Americas, specifically North America.
That generally accepted theory, which is taught in all schools and colleges, …. states that the 1st humans into NA crossed the Bering Sea “land bridge” from Asia …. like 10K years ago, …. then they upped it to 12K years, then to 14K or sooner, in their attempt to explain the recently found evidence that negates their silly claim(s).
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Keep in mind that even though they are called axes today that is only the general shape as we know it !! You couldn`t cut a hot biscuit with what liveauctioneers has on that pic !! We had several of that type all found in a large camp site !! Ours were a slightly different shape but still the same tool !! And the edge would not have worn that smooth in another 10,000 years !! You can find arrow heads and spear points today that have a edge that will shave !! The Caddo culture here were not warriors as such but were rather sedentary and spent years at one place !! Hunters would travel if necessary !! They were basically an agricultural group and farmed as well !! I personally think the so called axes like the one in SophieMaries pic were mostly for scare tactics should they happen across a not so friendly bunch of Indians,,and as a skull crusher if necessary !! They were also used to put a wounded animal out of its misery when hunting !!
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Cogar and Mart,
I was finally able to give you both a "brownie point". Good job!
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Thanks SophieMarie !! I take it you are enjoying yourself here ?? Hope you have a wonderful Christmas !!
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It's hard to appreciate the effort that went into these tools. At just one of the Knife River quarries, over the course of 10,000+ years, the overburden that had to be removed to reveal the flint amounted to over 4 million cubic meters!
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Red flint is our most common stone here !! When we did our surface hunting at the camp site along the Sulphur River in several places we would find many flint chips in a single place !! Then farther down we would find another area !! We also found many pieces of flint that were only rough shapes of points or scrapers !! Others were finished and quite nice if intact !! This field had been plowed and farmed for cattle feed and after the harvest we could walk for miles and surface hunt !! They raised the road over the river and even along the roadside you could find artifacts !! Once south of town after a subdivision had built a road I found a perfect black obsidian bird point !! About the size of my fingernail and not broken !! Evidently a trade point since there is no obsidian here !! Also found a nice and finely worked thumbnail scraper !! Not sure how that tiny thing was used !!
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You are welcome Mart!
Where else would I hear, " You couldn`t cut a hot biscuit with what liveauctioneers has on that pic !! "?
In answer to your question, yes, having fun and learning some too....
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SophieMarie, for your learning experience, here are a couple artifacts that I have,
Of course, one is either a flint spear point or knife and the other is a stone head for a war-club.
Both are about 7 ½ inches long and I know nothing about the stone war-club other than it was most probably found somewhere in West Virginia.
I found the flint knife in upstate New York and was told that “It looks like a Big Genesee Point” and it’s made of Onondaga chert …….. and is dated “between 4900 BP (6,900 years ago) and 3800 BP (5,800)” according to one person …… and dated at 8,000 years ago by a 2nd person.
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I have seen them in a bigger pic !! They are nice !!
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SophieMarie, for your learning experience, here are a couple artifacts that I have,
Of course, one is either a flint spear point or knife and the other is a stone head for a war-club.
Both are about 7 ½ inches long and I know nothing about the stone war-club other than it was most probably found somewhere in West Virginia.
I found the flint knife in upstate New York and was told that “It looks like a Big Genesee Point” and it’s made of Onondaga chert …….. and is dated “between 4900 BP (6,900 years ago) and 3800 BP (5,800)” according to one person …… and dated at 8,000 years ago by a 2nd person.
Cogar, thanks for sharing. They are truly amazing. I had not seen a flint spear point or knife or even a war-club prior to reading these posts. When I was a child, we use to search for arrow heads at my Grandmother's house in the woods (NJ). I have a small collection and will have to dig them out one of these days. Do you actively search for artifacts?
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Sophie Mari asked:
Do you actively search for artifacts?
HA, ... I don't actively do much of anything anymore. My RA has pretty much done me in.
I found the flint spear point by luck or accident, whichever. It was buried under about 12" of topsoil and I uncovered it with my bulldozer.
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A bulldozer is a great way to dig up artifacts...less strenuous ha!
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About half a mile behind my parents farm a man was clearing land with a small dozer along a stream and uncovered half an Indian`s bones !! We assumed he had died while hunting and the top half is what remained after the animals left !! It was not deep so we know it wasn`t a normal burial since the Caddo were mound builders !!
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Mart, are you certain those bones belonged to an Indian???
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Well,, UT Texas came and investigated it so I am going with what they said !!
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Whoa...glad to hear!
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Guys, I think I'm two men. I've been meeting the other one coming around the corner several times a day. I finally got some more shots taken and will post them. I know nothing about the stone tools of that period. Have found some beautiful arrow (spear?) points on the same site. I framed three of the best looking ones and gave them to our daughter and if she will attach a picture and send it in an e-mail to me I will add them to my posting and maybe someone will recognize them for what tribe they may have been produced by. Thank all of you for the help so far.!
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Apparently my posting didn't go thru so will try again. Here are two other views of the stone tools and my collection of Civil War artifacts.
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Those second pics of the possible scraper show that it is not a tool !! Even though there is one edge that may have some flaking it would not be any kind of a finished tool !! The thickness would make it uncomfortable to be held in the hand and the edge shows that it was probably just a broken piece of stone !! Or they could have started something and it just decided it was not a good idea !! Tools must be held comfortably in the hand !! Try holding this one and I think you will see what I mean !!
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Those second pics of the possible scraper show that it is not a tool !! Even though there is one edge that may have some flaking it would not be any kind of a finished tool !! The thickness would make it uncomfortable to be held in the hand and the edge shows that it was probably just a broken piece of stone !! Or they could have started something and it just decided it was not a good idea !! Tools must be held comfortably in the hand !! Try holding this one and I think you will see what I mean !!
Mart,
I'm losing it....I see a head!
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I saw that too but didn`t want to say it !! They think I am nuts already,, was not going to let them know it for sure !! ;D
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Ok, I feel better now....I'm not the only one!
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Wonder if KC can flip that pic ??