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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: burf1288 on March 12, 2009, 01:04:28 PM
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I've had this clock for a bout 5 or 6 years now and I've always wondered about it's history, value, etc. I was wondering if anyone could help me with any information about it. I've searched the net for hours and can't find it anywhere. There is a ribbon at the bottom of the clock that says, "Time is Money." Also, on the side, behind her right shoulder there is the name Waagen. The only Waagen I found that could have sculpted this is Arthur Waagen, but supposedly he dealt mostly with sculpting animals such as horses and dogs. I was wondering if this was sculpted by him and around what date. He died in 1910 so i am thinking late 1800s. Also if anyone could estimate a value, and where the best place to sell something like this would be. I would like to sell this piece soon and I was wondering if I should try ebay or a local auction. Any help or info would be greatly appreciated! Thank You. Pictures are attached.
Also, what is the best way to clean something like this? It has little white specs all over it that make it look depreciated.
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What is the clock case made of? Appears to be bronze or possibly pot metal? Does the clock work? Does it have a pendulum? I would advise not cleaning the exterior. Patina is very important to a lot of collectors and if you use the wrong stuff cleaning it, you could damage that. How tall in inches is it? Does the movement have any writing on it?
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The white stuff is Pitting, DON'T TRY TO CLEAN IT. can we get a closer view of the clock face? Do you see any other foundry mark's?
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The clock is made out of bronze, the clock currently does not work but all the part are intact and i'm sure it is fixable. Yes, there is a about a 2 and 1/2 inch pendulum inside body behind the clock. It is 26 inches tall, 16 inches from shoulder to shoulder, and weighs 32.5 pounds. The body of the woman (not sure who she is) is covered in coins, as well is her crown.
I don't see any other writing on the clock except the "Waagen" on the side, and I've looked everywhere. The is a very small bit of writing inside the body on the back of the clock mechanism but the only thing I can make out is "JAPY FRERES."
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Okay, is it just me or does anyone else see a letter after Waagen....I am seeing a F or P that isn't inset into the piece like the name....
Anyway....look at the bronze pictures that A Waagen did that is for sale at Southebys now.....http://www.sothebys.com/app/live/lot/LotDetail.jsp?lot_id=159519505 (http://www.sothebys.com/app/live/lot/LotDetail.jsp?lot_id=159519505) They are figural...not animal!
http://www.thursdaysantiques.com/catigorys/bronze.html (http://www.thursdaysantiques.com/catigorys/bronze.html) Another one!
Problem is that the only Mark I have seen of AW isn't the same as yours.....but many are not displayed!
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Nah there's no letter after the Waagen. It might just look that because of the angle. Here's another picture that a little clearer.
Also, I know that Waagen didn't stick strictly with animals I just know that animal work was his passion. I've seen alot of his pieces that have nothing to do with animals at all.
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Japy freres was a company in it's own right. and clock's were in there production line. it is and old clock face. look at four o'clock four roman numerals six o'clock position up side down etc. this is what you would expect to see.
It's French with condition problem's. Conseratively. $500.00 to $ 1,000.00 Dollars
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Zooming in on the Dial. the hour hand would date the clock. in the 1850's
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That is definitely alot older than I though it would be. Thank you for your information D&b Antiques. I just wish it was in better condition.
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Yes that pitting, is a big Ouch.
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Please pardon my ignorance but what would pit bronze? Is it the copper in the bronze makeup that is pitting?
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I know that this will be more than you bargained for....but lets get educated....as related from the "U.S. General Services Administration
Historic Preservation Technical Procedures" here are the reasonings for problems with bronze:
http://w3.gsa.gov/web/p/hptp.nsf/0/6c8c800d5618e023852565c50054b2c6?OpenDocument (http://w3.gsa.gov/web/p/hptp.nsf/0/6c8c800d5618e023852565c50054b2c6?OpenDocument)
Bronze is made up of copper.....
PROBLEM CORROSION
Active corrosion: If you notice the development of small spots of light green powder that grow rapidly, your bronze may be suffering from what is commonly called "bronze disease." As mentioned, green surfaces are often seen but may not be cause for alarm if the corrosion layer is continuous and does not flake off easily. Bright or "waxy" whitish green powder forming in small areas on the surface, or in cavities on the metal surface indicate advanced active corrosion. If left untreated, this type of corrosion can cause a significant amount of damage to copper alloys, as it causes pitting of the surface and a continuous loss of metal. This condition is sometimes noticed when green powder falls from an undisturbed object. It is caused by the presence of salts in the air, or by deposits left behind from inappropriate cleaning or handling and progresses when the air is humid. High levels of ammonia pollution in the air will cause bluish deposits of corrosion.
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Thank's KC for that info.
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I believe the reason for all of the pitting and corrosion is due to it sitting in an attic for the better part of its life. My grandparents said they found it in their attic back in the 50s and have had it ever since. Due to the clock not working I believe they kept it in their attic up until the day they gave it to me around 5 years ago. I've been trying to keep it in the best shape possible but I believe the damage done is already too great to put any effort into it.
Any idea what this would be worth in mint condition?
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$2,500.00 to $ 3,000.00 Dollars. may have even tipped the scales a bit more due to fact she is french. lot's of interest in french Antiques. I can imagine what KC is thinking he Appraise's here too.
Humidity change's can be staggering, in and attic if it's un heated.
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I guess the reason I was wondering what pits bronze is I have a railroad bronze bell that was placed on a Burlington steam locomotive at the turn of the century. It's been stored in very humid and cold conditions for many decades yet it looks great.
(http://i365.photobucket.com/albums/oo93/railman44/c2c592c3.jpg)
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Some interesting pieces to be sure.
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I think we have to consider, the composition of the metal. brass versus bronze steel etc. your bell has a very nice patina. quality control may not be in place. for example 1850's french bronze versus american brass bronze etc.
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I have to admit...this has just wrenched my insides....but, it is still a beautiful piece.
I would be willing to bet that this would have sold easily for upwards of $4,500+ with all the character...and especially since it is a clock....makes it very unique for his pieces! (That is if it was in excellent condition and the clock was as well!)
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Besides getting the clock to work, are there any methods to get the piece into better condition?
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To answer questions:
Railman44 - If you would look at the website noted earlier...different compositions are used for different things. Yours would be industrial usage made to withstand weather versus a "bronze" statuary usage that was clearly intended for indoors - when they made the clock they didn't anticipate it would be out in weather. Just as pieces of statuary for outside use will be a different composition. Great site for you to look at http://www.brosamersbells.com/buytips.html (http://www.brosamersbells.com/buytips.html)
burf1288 - All pieces can be repaired...but being repaired and retaining the current value or increasing the value is the big question at hand. I am sorry but I don't know of anything that you can do for the pits. You can't recast - it is an original and that would make it a copy/forged piece. To my knowledge, those pits can't be filled..they would alter the looks hideously. Being as I am not a foundry specialist, I would recommend that you find a foundry who specializes in cast bronze. If you don't know of one...call a local museum and ask them who they use for repair work. There are many places out there who are capable, but you want to make sure that which ever foundry you choose will be capable of doing fine chasing (metal re-texturing) and patination (chemical coloring) on bronze. Your piece is very old...this is what helps make it's value - it most likely was wax-cast which is a lost art. If this was a new piece with pitting...it wouldn't be worth the $500 - $1000. At least find out the cost and see if it is worth the repair work and/or find out how to prevent it from progressing.