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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: talesofthesevenseas on July 08, 2009, 04:37:10 PM
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Ya know, it really bugs me when I see an incorrect statement about an traditional antique get picked up and spread all over the Internet. It makes it very difficult to research an item!
I recently puchased an antique cast iron door knocker for my front door. It is a French lady's hand, holding a fruit. From what I understand, these are very common common all over Europe. France in particular seems to have the ones holding the fruit. They date from about the late 1800's on through the present day. There are a lot of reproductions made.
What I'm seeing is these clearly Victorian style repros being misrepresented as the Islamic "Hand of Fatima" door knockers. Islamic tradition forbids imitation of the creative properties of Allah, which is why Islamic art uses Arabic script and geometric design, and not representations of people, as is done in Christian art.
The Hand of Fatima looks like this:
(http://www.tattoosymbol.com/images/symbols/hand-fatima.jpg)
And European door knockers look like this:
(http://www.figuralcastiron.org/images2/doorknocker_small.jpg)
There's just no way that Victorian European Christians would have gone for Islamic door knockers in such a big way.
What I am trying to find out, is if there is any kind of story behind the traditional Europen ladie's hand knocker, or if they are simply decorative and cool-looking? It just looks like one of those kind of things that ought to have some sort of legend to it, but I sure have not been able to find one. Does anyone know? Please correct me if I am off-base with anything above too!
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it should be stated they represent Fatima Zahara prophet too Mohammed. regard less they ward off the Evil Eye. I could use that.
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I have always heard that they were just decorative.....one had to outdo the Jones living next door!
I have loved this site and it has lots of the hand with cuff door knockers
http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/album/440005801zmToNe?start=24 (http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/album/440005801zmToNe?start=24)
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Oh that's a good Web site! I haven't seen so many photographs of hand door knockers all in one place. It is interesting to see the little differences when they are side-by-side.
When I started looking for a knocker, it was fun seeing all the old figural door knockers that out there. It is interesting that figural knockers kind of went out of style along with architectural "gingerbread" on houses. Society's loss I say!
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Glad you enjoyed the site. I think it is so interesting and try to imagine the homes they were on...the people that were inspired to place them on their homes.....
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Considering all the nasty threads that got posted here yesterday , I was reluctant to see this one ;
I do like hardware quite a bit , so thanks for the thread .
I was afraid it was going to be one of those "show us your knockers" threads .
i know ...bad man ....again ....
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regularjoe2....made me laugh!
Yeah yesterday was a rough one but thanks to the wonderful/fabulous/stupendous/efficient/conscientious/super-human monitors those were removed quickly!
(did I over do it?)
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No you' didnt a big on line thank's to our on line moderator that volunteers his time to keep it clean. Railman
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LOL you know I was tempted to title the post something like "Check out my knockers" but decided against it!
The knocker just arrived in the mail this morning and it has a couple of hallmarks, on both the palm of the hand and on the rectangular base piece. The hallmarks are the same and appear on both pieces. One mark says "10c" and the other is an anchor, with a letter "C" on the left side and a letter "F" on the right. Pardon the poor photo quality, these are the Ebay photos. I'll take better ones. "10c" is on the left side of the palm, written vertically from top to bottom. "Anchor CF" is written horizontally on the right side of the palm. It's been painted copper color in recent years, I'll probably remove that. Looks like only one layer of paint, which is good.
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x124/talesofthesevenseas/Knocker2.jpg)
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x124/talesofthesevenseas/Knocker1.jpg)
I did a bit of hunting for the hallmark this morning, and I did find the "CF Anchor" hallmark on a French sad iron, which was dated 1850 to 1900. You can see the hallmark more clearly on this iron:
http://www.prices4antiques.com/kitchen-household/sad-irons-laundry/Sad-Iron-French-Spade-Shape-Anchor-CF-Mark-No-2-4-inch--D9762819.htm (http://www.prices4antiques.com/kitchen-household/sad-irons-laundry/Sad-Iron-French-Spade-Shape-Anchor-CF-Mark-No-2-4-inch--D9762819.htm)
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we have worked hard to get the volunteers, we have here. bantering jokeing post high jacking is expected & may be graded for qualilty & content.
It was the porno. that was wrecking the site. Railman has done a great job keeping it clean.
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I'm not having much luck finding information on iron foundry hallmarks. I did find this information on a site for antique copper:
'L C ' and fouled anchor mark found on a copper coffee pot and similar items. The anchor is said to represent the French Naval Medical service but the mark appears on many items for the domestic market.
(http://www.oldcopper.org/marks/a/lc3126-0663.jpg)
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Well this was a surprise- I used a gentle stripping agent to remove the modern copper paint tonight. I've got a little more to go, I'm still getting the last of it out of the crevices. There are lots of details coming out that I couldn't see before.
I was surprised to find that despite the fact that the knocker and the backplate have the same identical hallmarks, they are two different metals! The backplate is definitely cast iron, but the hand appears to be bronze. I am liking how it looks, now that the original surface is coming out from under the paint.
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x124/talesofthesevenseas/Knocker3.jpg)
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Wow nice piece (behave regularjoe).
Interesting that it is of 2 different metals. I imagine the larger was more $$$$ and to cut costs cast iron was used. Guess even the Jones' saved a few pennies!
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Looks nicer , since you cleaned it up , talesof .
Are you going to let it 'patina-up' now ?
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Thanks guys. Yes, I'm going to let it do its thing, the way its supposed to. I'll check if I should treat it with anything first to protect it.
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Well this was a surprise- I used a gentle stripping agent to remove the modern copper paint tonight. I've got a little more to go, I'm still getting the last of it out of the crevices. There are lots of details coming out that I couldn't see before.
A good wire brushing would do a fine job at cleaning those two pieces up.
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I am taking a pretty gentle approach with slathering them in stripping agent, letting that sit, then using a scrub brush while the paint is loose, I think one, maybe two will finish it off, just the stuff in crevices is a little thicker since that is where it pooled up. That seems to be working quite nicely, just takes a little time, so I work at it in the evenings after work.
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I really like this. Can you advise where you got it and price range? Great attention getter and conversation piece...as well as still functional and going strong!
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I would suggest, a sharp pointed stick ( Dowel Rod ) work's great on wood or metal for crevice's and a stiff nylon brush they won't scratch the surface....
And resistant to most if not all paint removers. includeing Kwik marine paint remover.
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To remove stubborn paint from cast iron, steel or oak furniture I have wore out a couple “steel wire” brushes. When using said on oak, always brush in the direction of the grain.
For item that are softer and easily scratched I used a “copper wire” brush which can be purchased at many retailer, probably WalMart, a hardware store or an auto parts/paint dealer.
Copper wire brushes come in different sizes, shapes and firmness, to wit:
(http://www.sz-wholesale.com/uploadFiles/Copper_Wire_Brush_728.jpg)
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I'm on D&b's train of thought using wooden or nylon....I have made too many marks on things in the past and kicked myself for not taking the more cautious, slower side of removal. Now, I take baby steps and don't get kicked quite as often:)
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The knocker had only one layer of paint, and it's coming off pretty easily, so I'm taking the gentle route. I'm not in a big hurry, since the knocker is part of a larger project.
The larger project involves sanding/priming/repainting the door, and hunting down an antique pull-style door latch. (Hubby gets to choose that part!) and putting in a walkway up to the front door, that is made of cobblestones from the streets of San Francisco.
These came over as ship's ballast on the goldrush era ships and were recycled into street cobblestones. They were in the streets from about 1850 to 1910. Some of the ones I have were pulled up by a barge from the floor of the SF bay. Those ones have barnacles on them. These were never in the streets, but fell to the bay floor when the goldrush ships were abandoned in the harbor and eventually rotted or were burned to the waterline. I've posted a couple of photos below.
Answering KC:
I got the knocker from an overseas seller on Ebay. I ran a search for knocker hand and there have been quite a few recently to choose from. I paid US $39 and the overseas shipping was $16. I really like the knocker too, I looked at a lot of different antique knockers of different styles before I picked this one. It was the only one I saw for sale holding an apple. Most have a plain ball. My twenty-year-old son says he likes it, but that it's "creepy". It definitely could be considered goth!
Here's an example of someone else's walkway with SF cobblestones:
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x124/talesofthesevenseas/Cobblestones3.jpg)
And here's my unwashed cobblestones, just home from SF today:
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x124/talesofthesevenseas/Cobblestones4.jpg)
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KC: A little more about the pricing of the Victorian hand knockers- Although mine was $39, I think it was priced a little lower than most because it had been painted. Most of them I saw had not been painted and were priced from about $60-$85-ish. They went a little higher if they included the striker plate that the knocker hits against. But I saw some go in the 50's that had low opening bids. They also run higher if they are brass. The highest I saw was $265.
There's a particularly interesting one up on Ebay now with a Madonna and child on the back of the hand:
http://cgi.ebay.com/BRASS-HAND-DOOR-KNOCKER_W0QQitemZ220450867441QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAU_Home_Decor?hash=item3353e548f1&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A12%7C66%3A2%7C39%3A1%7C72%3A1205%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50 (http://cgi.ebay.com/BRASS-HAND-DOOR-KNOCKER_W0QQitemZ220450867441QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAU_Home_Decor?hash=item3353e548f1&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A12%7C66%3A2%7C39%3A1%7C72%3A1205%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50)
(http://i.ebayimg.com/09/++!!gneQB2k~$(KGrHgoOKjgEjlLmYUWJBKWW8Zzbh!~~_1.JPG)
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Nice stories , talesof .
Your ballast stones may be linked to the lumber trade as well .
They may be Pacific Northwest basalt ( they look like it , from the images ) .
Henry Yesler , Pacific N.W. lumber baron (among other things) , sold tons of lumber to San Francisco region , after the fire & eartquake in 1906 .
He required that sea captains bring dirt to Seattle ( which was used for fill for the former mud-flats that are now downtown Seattle ) from San Francisco ; otherwise he would not sell them lumber .
He also used sawdust from his mill for this purpose , 20 feet deep , in some places .
What a way to get free real estate , eh ?!?!?
They would frequently dump ballast overboard ( in San Fran ) to be able to haul more dirt .
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Backtracking to original post - You're correct that this hand is not an Islamic symbol - but not in the way you think. Fatima is its Islamic name, but Jews have sometimes called it "Miriam" (sister of Moses and Aaron) instead, although Jews of North African origin call it by the Arabic word for five: "hamsa". Humans are constantly looking for symbols of our ideas - a woman's hand is one of those symbols that, like crosses, eggs, and evergreen trees, comes from pagan times before Abraham. So it's pre-Islamic, pre-Christian, pre-Judaism - it's a symbol from goddesses in ancient Babylonia (Ishtar/Astarte, or Ashtoreth in the Old Testament), ancient Egypt (Neith), Carthage (Tanit), and Greece (Aphrodite was their version of Ishtar/Astarte/Ashtoreth). People in many cultures that now follow the 3 Abrahamic religions have used this woman's-hand symbol for millenia, and have continually updated its shape, and supplied it with their newest and best stories, over that time. The symbol is basically as old as human culture. We all admire women who are powerful or smart enough to repel thieves and grifters, who re-direct the neighbors' jealousy of our belongings to some other person or purpose, who make sure family prospers by their hard work and cleverness, who know how to heal with food & medicine. Call it a fertility symbol (apples in the European version are also fertility symbols), or a reminder of the old female connection to botanical healing knowledge (if not fruit, the hand usually holds a "healing ball" - priests called that witchcraft). Or call it "warding off the Evil Eye" like they do in Greece, Italy, and North Africa, or just keep it simple and call it a good luck charm.
The "hamsa" is still very popular in Islamic North Africa, especially with Berbers, and has recently become very popular in Israel because of their connection with Jews from North Africa. It has such a long history of use in Europe that it's hard to say whether these 19th-century brass door-knockers are more influenced by pagan Aphrodite & Venus from Greece & Rome, or by the Moors in Spain who had a rich artistic tradition frequently operating side-by-side with Christians & Jews in cities where all 3 groups used Fatima's hand to keep away the Evil Eye. European Christians a couple of centuries ago might have called this symbol by the name Fatima because they liked her story: Fatima married a poor man, had no servants, worked very hard to keep her house as clean and as prosperous as she could, was her father's favorite daughter and helped to care for him in old age (there's the "healer" connection). Maybe some of the artists & artisans who made door-knockers were educated enough to know about the earlier connection to pagan goddess-symbols, maybe not. Maybe bourgeois European Christians of the 1800s-1900s who put them on their doors found the Fatima story more comforting than the pagan stories which can be a little too sexy and tangled for proper Christians. Then again...who knows what they knew or thought about that woman's hand when they put it on the door? There was a lot of interest in occult practice & symbolism in Victorian England. Maybe some traveller, historian or antiquarian saw the striking similarity between the European & North African door-knockers that the Victorian artisans who cast them were totally unaware of. Make up your own story about how Fatima's Hand (or Miriam's, or Aphrodite's) ended up in northwestern Europe - it might be correct. Or ... maybe it's just a pretty woman's hand to you.
Enjoy your beautiful door-knocker, and may it bring you good luck!
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Nice post, rach, this is what I love about this site, it's a virtual encyclopedia!
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Thanks Rach, I do enjoy the knocker very much! Ultimately I did sort out the story behind it. In the Victorian era it represented the Greek myth of Eris who tossed an apple marked "Kallisti" (for the most beautiful one) into the wedding party of Peleus and Thetis when she wasn't invited. This sets off a chain of events and arguments over who is most beautiful, and ultimately sets off the Trojan War.