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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: ayashe on July 12, 2009, 04:04:50 AM
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Hello everyone, I bought these separately about 5 years ago off eBay. The stone cross is meant to be Byzantine and the ring Roman-Saxon, I believe (from memory). I was hoping someone could shed some light on this and tell me if they are genuine? I bought them on a whim (LOL) and since have wondered if I was "had" or if they might be the real thing. ;D Also, I am less interested in their value but if anyone has any guesses I wouldn't mind knowing what you might think they could be worth. They're both very heavy; the cross feels like stone and the ring is obviously a heavy metal. The ring also has a crack in the band, as shown in the photos. I have put the coin in the photos to help with size comparison. After I bought them I learned it's very naughty to buy these items since most of the time, if they're genuine, they've been stolen from archaeological digs! Thanks everyone! ;)
(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr213/ayashe_sammie/antiques/IMG_9616.jpg)
(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr213/ayashe_sammie/antiques/IMG_9617.jpg)
(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr213/ayashe_sammie/antiques/IMG_9618.jpg)
(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr213/ayashe_sammie/antiques/IMG_9619.jpg)
(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr213/ayashe_sammie/antiques/IMG_9625.jpg)
(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr213/ayashe_sammie/antiques/IMG_9626.jpg)
(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr213/ayashe_sammie/antiques/IMG_9627.jpg)
(http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr213/ayashe_sammie/antiques/IMG_9628.jpg)
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My first thought when I saw the ring was that it has been cut off! The "style" does appear to be old...but I wouldn't go to the bank on it from being from the
My other thought is if they're are in fact from that 1,000 year period (Byzantine) (even if stolen) they wouldn't be sold on EBay. There are lots of private collectors out there that will get these items, one way or another, and are willing to pay the prices.
However, stranger things have happened....
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D&b could very well be correct, however, before I got in to antiques again, I was collecting antiquities. There are genuine sellers of Byzantium and other cultural artifacts on eBay, even Egyptian. Most are not genuine, but I know some collectors who go on private "digs" meaning medaldetecting in south-eastern Europe and it is not uncommon for them to find loads of this stuff. If you have the name of the seller I could take a look for you. Also, seeing as I am def. no specialist, check out the antiquities forum on Yahoo Groups. They are devoted to catching sellers of fakes on eBay.
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Hmm, well I've done a search for the seller in my feedback and on eBay and he's completely gone! Even the feedback he left me is gone, I didn't know that was possible. Usually the feedback will stay and eBay will type unregistered user underneath. Unless he's changed his name? Oh well. I remember his name was something like 'fn7'... which I thought sounded bizarrely like a shortened swearword with 7 at the end. Anyway, he had lots of coins and other small items like jewelery, etc. I guess I've learned my lesson! I think I paid $15-$20 each for them so no huge loss. Thanks both of you for your help. :)
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Remember that it didn't used to be illegal to export antiquities from their home countries. In the 18th and 19th centuries, thousands upon thousands of artifacts came to the US legally as tourist souveniers. What came here legally then, is still legal to own, although morally, yeah there may be a guilt factor, and some artifact owners do eventually return their artifacts to the countries of origin.
Look at your ring for signs of finger wear on the band, it may be thinner where a human finger would bend around the ring. However if it was grave goods, it would have virtually no wear, since they weren't worn during life in most cases, but may have corrosion from embalming, depending on where it is from. Yours looks like it was worn and was not a grave item.
Most bronze rings are pretty cheap and faking one isn't worth the effort for a small profit. From the photo, yours looks like it has genuine wear and patina. The style is very similar to a lot of ancient bronze rings. I'm not an expert, but an enthusiast, with a small collection of ancient Egyptian and Roman artifacts. I can't say much about the cross, although a lot of the Coptic crosses look similar, and I couldn't say if the ring has a floral design or a cross. It would depend on where it came from and if the seller has disappeared, it is hard to say if what he said was true or not.
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Thanks for your imput... I've always thought it was a crooked flower on the ring, lol! I am glad to hear you possibly see a cross, I hadn't thought of that. It is very smooth and comfortable to wear, though I don't see the band any thinner from use. I must admit my heart skipped a beat when you mentioned grave goods, and corrosion from embalming :o ... but that would be exciting too! Thanks for your insight, I think I will leave it to the unknown for now though in my heart I think the ring is genuinely something not new!
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I would bet its a flower on the ring and would agree that it's ancient, but again, I'm not an expert at all. But it has the same looks as the ones I have, particularly those tiny horizontal fractures on the band where it is thin, not the one that goes through, but the others. I've seen that on a lot of the ancient rings where the metal is thin. Cool ring! Isn't it neat wondering where it has been and who wore it all those years ago?!
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I agree with Tales regarding the age. Rings like the ones you have are fairly common and thousands upon thousands can be found within a square mile at a good site. From the pictures it is really hard to tell if they are genuine, but they could be on further reflection! The ring looks like a Byzantine ring to me.
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Yes, I'm amazed how common they are! I agree with you luxetveritas (now that I've been able to find photos of other rings) that it's Byzantine design.
talesofthesevenseas, do you ever polish any of your rings? Or do you leave them blacky-green? I'm not going to try and polish mine (too scared... and don't mind the colour) but was wondering if you'd given it a go?
Thanks everyone for your help!
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My understanding is that leaving them unpolished with their patina intact is always best. That when you remove the patina, you remove some of its history. But if you have one that is wearable, since the rings are not particularly high-value or historically significant, I guess that comes down to personal choice. I have some that I bought already polished that are quite wearable and interesting. I think with the severe fracture in the band, wearing the ring would not be a good idea. But the cross looks quite wearable.
I think there's a certain mindset for appreciating the beauty the patina itself and what it represents, and weighing it against what we're used to seeing as beauty- things sparkly and shiney. Although this is how the person who owned it appreciated it too, so you kind of have to weigh all of that and make a decision.
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While visiting the site of the city of Troy (in the early 1970's) , I was sitting on the bank of a small archeological 'trial trench' smoking a cig & taking in the whole scene .
As I was swinging my heels & knocking off a little dirt from the trench (not on purpose , I swear!) , I uncovered 5 small bronze coins .
Later on in the day , I got in touch with one of the 'guides' at the site & gave him 4 coins , told him where I found them , etc.
He told me he'd give them to the Archeologist(s) working the dig .
The next day I found out he'd sold them to a tourist .
I'm a bad man , because I kept one .
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No doubt he would sell them, a LOT of artifacts are stolen every day from sites like that. That's a really cool find though!! Especially from a site like Troy, awesome! I actually hadn't realized a lot of excavation was still going on around the site. Cool, I really, really, really want to visit Turkey, especially for a dig!
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I think we need to start a topic for sharing vacation photos of the historic places we have gone to! It sounds like there are some killer photos and stories out there!
Ayashe, I think ancient and antique jewelry pieces are awesome. I don't even buy modern jewelry anymore. I've never had any interest in stuff like modern diamonds or gold, but show me an ancient, corroded bronze ring and I'm drooling! Go figure!!
It's fun because people always ask me about the jewelry I wear because it is different from what they usually see. The cross is neat because you could get so many different looks with it- On a black choker it would look Goth, on a simple chain it would look striking and ancient. It would look awesome as the only piece of jewelry with a black evening dress. Cleaned or uncleaned, I think it will look great! What's cool about these ancient pieces is that they are still so wearable and affordable, and you know you have the only one like it in the world! What can be better than that?
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yes they are affordable. I would certainly wear them.
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Yes, I prefer ancient (or at least antique) jewelery as well. I used to wear the stone cross combined with another cross I have on a chain, and I have a few pieces of old pottery framed in silver that I wear, along with antique earrings, rings, etc. I like to keep things in their original condition, so agree with you on leaving the patina. ;D I found a nice site that sells polished rings and artifacts tho. It's pretty cool. I found it after I posted my question ::):
http://www.thehonourablecompany.com/store/index.php
And I have never been to this place, but since you mentioned posting pics of where we have been... i WANNA go here... y'all might think I'm a bit strange now...! ;)
http://www.ludd.luth.se/~silver_p/kutna-1.html
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I haven't been to too many exciting places recently, but I really want to see Chin Xi Huang's tomb in China and go to Xi'an to visit the terracotta warriors. Mind you, Chin's tomb hasn't been excavated, but I still really want to see it! I'm in the process of befriending a few prominent archaeologists in China, so when they do open the tomb- if ever- I will be invited to help :P Totally kidding, but I do have some plans... :)
Has anyone been to Xi'an? Or Beijing? Or anywhere in China for that matter? I went to some rural parts of China, which was amazingly fun, but never to anywhere like the Great Wall of China. I did see the thickest wall though- it is in Jiangsu province. My high school best friend's grandparents lived in Jiangsu, and I went with him and his mom. We didn't see much, since they were only visiting family, but it was still such a great opportunity. Too bad this was before the digital camera days :( I have some pretty cool photos.
--Lux
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Neat store Ayashe, but man... the prices are pretty high compared to what's on Ebay if you clean them yourself! They've got one up on their Web site that looks a lot like your ring (see below) The place you posted looks cool. I'd love to see the catacombs in France someday!
(http://www.thehonourablecompany.com/store/images/uploads/1942.jpg)
Lux, I SO hope they open the tomb of Chin Xi Huang in my lifetime! It would be so amazing to know what is inside. I recall reading that there are legends of a tiny town with a river of mercury in there. Have they done any ground penetrating radar to see if any anomalies exist that are consistant with the legends? I would love to see the terracotta warriors too, that is one place I really want to go. I would love to see your photos, if they are hard copy photos all you have to do is take a digital photograph of them. I've done that with a lot of old photos. If they are slides, you can have them converted at a photo processing place. I need to do that too, I have some great photos from two trips to Egypt.
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They did test the the soil and air inside the tomb, and the story is "true". The levels of mercury detected are like 1000 what the normal ones should be. That would be so cool to see the tomb... ah well, Tales, we should befriend some famous archaeologists together! I want to contact Professor Guo Dashun someday. He is the foremost expert on the Hongshan culture in the world, and he excavates Hongshan burials often. Those burials are not publicized usually since they are pretty minor, and no one else really has the opportunity to accompany him accept for his "team", so I was thinking 1.) prove to him that your knowledge on the Hongshan culture is substantial (which, as of now, it's not at all :) ) 2.) Ask to accompany him for one of his expeditions.
I get crazy ideas like that all the time :) But I really think that it would work. I mean, why not? Besides inexperience in the field :) I could do the grueling work that no one else wants to do! I was once offered that position on an English dig :P However, I didn't go because I didn't really want to spend $3k to go there and dig shovel dirt in the rain while everyone else was excavating ::) I can just picture me... haha, well, there is a lot left to be found!
I also want to go with... darn, what's her name... curse. She's a Russian archaeologist and uncovers ice tombs all the time in Siberia. Now that would be amazing, apparently it's not hard to find the tombs, and when they're found there are preserved items in them a lot of the time because it's freezing. So much to do! ...and not enough money to do it with :D
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Wow Lux, 1000x normal?!!! With something like that sleeping just below their feet, you have to admire the patience of archaeologists!
You know what the best thing about inexperience is? It's 100% curable! :D If you're not into the manual labor of a dig, you might think about drafting and mapping which are skills you can learn at a local community college that are applicable to archaeological digs. There are also some good college programs in some areas that would be more specific too. On the dig I did, being the drafter was definitely more of a kush job, but I was still very much in the thick of it. I was down in the bottom of a shaft drawing soil elevations, in the lab drawing and dimensioning projectile artifacts, all over the site taking compass readings and recording them on the map, then later off-site to reproduce the hand-drawn map in AutoCAD. But I didn't have to shovel.
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I didn't think of taking classes on drafting and mapping! That's an excellent idea. And you are totally right, inexperience is curable thank god.
Btw, I was exaggerating with the 1000 times, I'm not sure what the actual reading was- can't remember. I do know that it was a lot more than normal though. They also think there are many other poisonous gas traps and traps that trigger various weapons. It would be so cool to explore a tomb of an emperor :) So jealous. Maybe I should go back to college and become an archaeologist ;)
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Oh, you mentioned Siberian ice tombs. The ones that really facinate me are the sailors from the Franklin Expedition. Have you seen the footage or photos from that? Amazing.