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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: sapphire on August 23, 2009, 10:56:14 PM
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I'm so glad I found this forum. I had been searching for information on what I believe to be a Chinese silk panel I just purchased.......jus t happened across it at a thrift shop and fell in love with it. The only informative link I could find was to a piece being sold on Ebay that was similar in color and some of the designs. Of course mine is not in the excellent shape as the one being sold. That one is said to be from the 1800's.
The panel is 39" square, the material that makes up the border appears to have a metallic thread. After seeing mentions in threads on this forum regarding 'marks', I checked the back and was surprised to notice one that I had previously overlooked.
Could anyone give me any information or an educated guess as to age and value? Also advice on how to best treat and preserve this piece?
Thanks in advance for any help or comments.
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t98/geeziesmom/IMG_1535-1-2.jpg)
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t98/geeziesmom/IMG_1551.jpg)
I can take more pics to show the detail better if needed. Tks.
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Welcome to the forum!
Can you show an upclose on the center? Also can you describe the construction, if the designs in the silk are printed, painted or embroidered?
As far as preservation, it depends on what you want to do with it, just keeping it safe, or displaying it. To keep it, a nice dry, dark drawer or cupboard is great. Light is the enemy of textiles! Make sure it is not touching any wood or paper, they are acidic. roll it loosely, rather than folding it.
If you want to display it, a good UV filter shadowbox is good, but they cost a small fortune. (I have a Chinese cloud collar I'm putting in one when I can afford it!) If yours is flat, you might not need a shadowbox, just a frame larger than the piece, with UV filter Plexiglass. Make sure the backing is acid free, you can also put it on cotton cloth covered backing with cotton under it if it needs a "cushion". Make sure it's not touching the frame and make sure that the frame is not air-tight, it needs to be able to "breathe" so that moisture is not trapped in with the fabric. If the fabric is extremely dry, it can also be rehydrated, or cleaned, but if it is fragile, this kind of thing is best done by a pro.
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Thanks for your reply Tales. The fabric is quite fragile, showing near threadbare where it has likely been folded for some time. Along part of one side where the border meets the center panel the silk has separated, but still lays in place when flat. It is backed with what appears to be cotton, the printed material which bears the mark above. The designs are all embroidered.
Here are some close ups. Sorry if some are not clear, batteries were dying ....... just enough juice to download.
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t98/geeziesmom/IMG_1553.jpg)
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t98/geeziesmom/IMG_1570.jpg)
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t98/geeziesmom/IMG_1561.jpg)
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t98/geeziesmom/IMG_1563-1.jpg)
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t98/geeziesmom/IMG_1564-2.jpg)
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t98/geeziesmom/IMG_1565-2.jpg)
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t98/geeziesmom/IMG_1568.jpg)
Sorry if those are too large. :(
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Nice pics! Great embroidery Piece!!!!!!!!!!
Like Talesof said....what are you wanting to do with it.....store it or display it?
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nice large panel,sapphire.
my initial guess on age is first half of 20th century,maybe 20's-30's.
would like to see a clearer photo of sig/fabric backing,if possible.
2 questions -is the gold stitching on the main body of the border(s) exactly the same as in the center (around the figures) ;
is the bias tape/fabric around the border fabric silk (if you can tell)?
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I had planned to display it. I really had no idea exactly what I had picked up, other than I loved the look of it......two other ladies were hovering over my shoulder when I spotted it. As I unfolded it to take a look they asked if I was going to buy it. They weren't too impressed when I said I was. It wasn't until I got back home to my son's that I could actually lay it out and get a much better look at the amount of detail. That's when my curiosity set in and I tried to find out a bit more about the piece.
I'm concerned I won't be able to afford to have a professional do the work. But I will check around and see if it can be done here and if I can get a price. It would be a shame to pack it away rather than enjoy the beauty of it, but I also don't want to do any more damage to it. My first thought when finding it was that if it could somehow be cleaned it would be stunning.......but now I don't know if that could be done safely.
fancypants, now that it's daylight (and my batteries have recharged) I'll be able to get some better shots. I'll check the border to see if I can tell what it might be.
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I would not recommend that you get it cleaned just any 'ole place.
Call a local museum and explain that you have a very old Chinese tapestry that you are interested in getting cleaned and ask for a recommendation. They are your best bet.
However, many people do not get them cleaned unless there is apparent soiling on it.
Do believe it is chinese. sending pic to friend for further info.
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fancypants, the bias/trim appears by look and feel to be silk. Also, it is fraying in the same manner as some areas of the center panel. The gold 'stitching' has me even more curious. I was able to look 'inside' through the tear and don't know if I'm seeing a separate piece/type of material or a backing on the silk with the gold being some sort of cording that has been stitched to the silk. It is the same on both border and centerpiece. I tried to get a clearer pic of the signature. Took it as close as possible, then fiddled with the clarity on my computer.
As for cleaning, I would only get it done by someone familiar with the process and only if it was something I could afford. The marks are noticeable, but not disfiguring. It's just a shame that the full beauty can't shine through as is.
Here are some clearer shots taken in daylight. I apologize for the picture overload. :(
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t98/geeziesmom/IMG_1572.jpg)
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t98/geeziesmom/IMG_1575.jpg)
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t98/geeziesmom/IMG_1574.jpg)
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t98/geeziesmom/IMG_1576.jpg)
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t98/geeziesmom/IMG_1577.jpg)
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t98/geeziesmom/IMG_1578.jpg)
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t98/geeziesmom/IMG_1583.jpg)
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t98/geeziesmom/IMG_1583-1.jpg)
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Definitely not kesi (form of Chinese tapestry developed in the Tang Dynasty 618 - 920).
Definitely woven back ground with interwoven threads. Will wait to see what friend says.
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This is actually getting very exciting. Even though it may not be a 'treasure find', I certainly got my $5 worth and more just in the fun of learning more about it!
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What a great thrift store find! Nowadays most thrift stores comb through their stuff for antiques and put them up on their Web site. I'm surprised this one slipped by! Way to go! Keep your eye on that store! ;) Definitely would be great to put it on display in a nice acid-free backed, UV filter Plex frame! Check out a framing store, or even a good craft store with a framing department. They should be able to help you do it for not too terribly much since it is flat.
I think, especially with the black/white make-up, that your characters in the center are Chinese opera characters, but a person who knows more than I do should confirm that.
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Did you say $5 bucks?!!! :o Sweeeeeeeeet!!!
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Yuppers, $5 ;) It's a little shop I came across when visiting my kids on the other side of Canada. It's run by/for a local church. They just price whatever comes in according to it's use. Also, it's centered in an area populated by a great number of older Chinese families. Now I wish I had taken the time to look through their oriental collectibles on the shelves behind the cash counter......only there because the store is jammed to the hilt and the bookcase on the back wall was convenient. I had fun there last year picking up odds and ends, and clothes of course. Just came home a few days ago from another trip (and planned visit to my favourite shop). Won't have the chance again till next year. :(
Tales, with the panel being the size it is, I'll definitely have to get a frame custom made. You mentioned a cloth covered backing. What type of cloth would you suggest? I have a couple of 60-70 yr old linen tablecloths (white/ivory) that are no longer in use, would the material be suitable/safe or is there something I should look for? I would like to be able to show the entire panel with possibly a border of color, but don't want to use anything that could possibly damage it further.
I also want to say thank you to all, for the help and advice.
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I forgot to ask, what is a Plex frame??
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Sorry for abbreviating, "Plex" is short for Plexiglass, the trade name for the plastic used instead of glass. Plexiglass is good because not only can you get it in UV filter so that light won't damage it, but the Plexiglass won't shatter and rip it if it gets knocked off the wall. (I live in earthquake country!)
Here are some sites that have information on preserving textiles:
http://www.kshs.org/preserve/heirlooms/textiles.htm (http://www.kshs.org/preserve/heirlooms/textiles.htm)
http://www.preservation.gc.ca/howto/articles/textiles_e.asp (http://www.preservation.gc.ca/howto/articles/textiles_e.asp)
http://www.needleart.org/NANthology/06winterbook.php (http://www.needleart.org/NANthology/06winterbook.php)
Additionally, when I got my Chinese cloud collar, I contacted Alden O'Brien, who is a conservator with the DAR Museum in Washington DC. I got to know her because my Rev War ancestor's wedding dress is there and last year I donated the same ancestor's shawl to the museum. This recommendation on hydrating textiles comes from her:
"[If the fabric is] so brittle that it will tear or shred it to do so. (in which case the first thing is to re-hydrate it a bit which involves letting it sit next to a bowl of distilled water, in a plastic bag, so the water gently slowly evaporates and it is gently slowly absorbed by the dry fibers—not a bad thing to do in any case.) A few stitches done once is better than constant pressure of the plexi, I feel."
I hope this is helpful! Man... I would love to go to that store! Lux is gonna drool when he hears about it!
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Wow, thanks for that info Tales !!
From what you have explained and what I have read on the links you supplied, I take it that the plexiglass does not have a 'frame', similar to those seen in stores that consist of a clear front/back with some form of clip to hold them? Not that I would consider using one of these, just trying to get a picture in my mind of exactly what I would be looking for. I'm going to do some searching for someone local who is familiar with this type of preservation and who can supply me with what I need or at least point me in the right direction. If I'm on the wrong track visualizing it, please feel free to correct me...... I'm treading in unknown waters here ;)
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Plexiglass is just special plastic glass. It goes in a frame just like glass does. But since it is plastic, you can also make shadow boxes and display cases out of it, like the ones you see in museums.
You just want to keep the frame away from the cloth, because a wooden frame has acid that can damage the cloth. As long as the cloth isn't touching the frame, it's OK to have a frame holding the plexiglass.
Also just so you know I'm not any kind of an authority on this, so please double-check everything against those sites I gave you. I just recently researched this myself, since I have that Chinese cloud collar to preserve and display.
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What you need is Plexiglass MC or G. These are the two UV plexs. Any art store will have it available. I work in a graphic display company when not acting like a Antique expert. ;D. As for a shadow box, just think of it as a really thick frame, that will allow for a thicker then picture item. If you use matte board make sure it is Acid free or what is called Musuem Board. If what you need is not that big. I may be able to save you some money. We toss out lots of plex and matte board all the time at work. We usually deal in larger then 16x20. So I could maybe set you and tales up with plex for just the cost of shipping if it is smaller then 16x20 in size. Better then getting tossed in the land fill. What I deal with is photos and graphics, I make my own frames and shadow boxes and matte up photo, what I don't know is how to attach the fabric safely to the matte board, what we use at work would ruin it. But when it comes to mounting and frameing it just ask, I will be glad to help.
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That is such a sweet offer Ironlord!! Unfortunately I'm quite a distance from you I believe. As well, my piece measures 39 x 39. Could be an interesting hunt on my part. Believe it or not I just came across a beautiful frame on Kijiji. It's 43 x 43, appears to be a dark mahogany or walnut finish with slender, gold trim. It was custom made by a well known, reputable framing store in the city, so I know that what they are asking is certainly less than 1/4 the original cost (I had priced framing a large print with them several years ago). I may take a run in to look at it and at the same time check out suppliers for the plexiglass. It seems a shame to remove the print that is in it, but I could always hang onto it, just in case. Thanks so much for the reference to the MC and G in regards to the plex. Luckily I keep a notepad handy to scribble down all the advice I'm getting.
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Yea 43 x 43 is rather large, Is the frame you found a Shadow box, or just a frame?. You may want to keep space between the surface of the cloth and the plex. This is one of the reasons for Matte board with photos, so it does not touch the glass or plex. Make sure the frame is thick enough to take at least 3 layers of Matte and cardstock thick. 1/8" is kinda small, 1/4" at the least, 1/2" and above would be a shadow box. Please if you can post pics when you are done. I think this will be a spectcular wall decoration.
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Aw gee thanks Ironlord! :D That was really nice of you to offer! Unfortunately, to hold my cloud collar, I need 30"x30" Plex, set into a shadowbox. But if you can purchase it wholesale, maybe we can figure something out that I can purchase.
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You might want to do what I am doing for mounting your piece. After checking with Alden and the DAR Museum, I'm creating a pillow of cotton, covering it with cotton cloth, and then attaching that to the acid-free backboard. Then VERY carefully I'll be adding a few neccessary anchor stitches to attach the cloud collar to the cotton pillow. This will then go into the shadowbox. Mine has to hang diagonally, point down.
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If it comes down to it and you have a price. We have a killer vendor discount at Laird Plastics, but to ship something like that would kill the cost. We ship plex that size all the time, cost almost $100.00, so you will get a better deal local I'm sure, but if you ever need a small piece. Cost you only a few bucks in shipping. It is sad the amount of waste we generate at Stella Color in Seattle. Foam, Gatorborad, Plex, adhesive, Laminates and etc. You need any you just let me know, Serious just the cost of shipping.
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It is just a regular frame from what I can tell. I'm 'hoping' it has enough depth, having one made that size could become overly costly for me. Hubby and I are both quite handy with the tools, so have given some thought to the possibility of adding some depth using trim on the back. Where it will be hanging it would never be noticed and would allow me the space I need to properly enclose it. I so wish we didn't have to be DIY'ers, but then again if that were the case I wouldn't have walked into that thrift shop to begin with. ;)
We'll see what comes of my trip to town.......if nothing else I will have learned a bit more and have some names/figures to work with.
Here is a pic of the frame I'm going to take a look at.
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t98/geeziesmom/62003g0_20.jpg)
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I've never have added depth to a frame but I don't see why not. From What I see this would have little depth to work with. One good way is to mount it to a backer and Double Matte at least on the between the backer. This would be difficult if you mount to a cotton pillow kind of thing. If you ues a standard frame you will have to find a way to mount right to the Backer Board. (which can be Acid free matte). This is where I fall short, anything I have done would be wrong for you to do. Also keep in mind that a Matted method will cost a bit in just cutting two matte board that size. All in All I would find away to extend the depth, or maybe build a shadow box. They are pretty easy to make and look wonderful will old Wood you can get for free. But now that I think about it that would be too rustic of a look for your item. I think it need something equal in looks, that is a nice Panel. I thnk if you have a good woodworking friend or the tools you can build your own for 50 buck maybe and would look really good.
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I had to smile as I read your post ironlord. I'd been laying in bed trying to wake up and thinking more about the frame. I guess most of our best thinking is done in bed. :) I totally overlooked a gentleman just down the road from me who is an accomplished craftsman and who has on different occasions offered to make something I might have needed (or plow my driveway, etc). Guess it's true about the brain cells dying. I'm going to see what I can find in instructions on making a shadowbox, but as his wife is heavy into crafts it's possible he's already made one for her or her friends. Wish me luck! ;)
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Thanks for posting all the images of your item , sapphire (and welcome to the forum) .
As some others have mentioned , perhaps a professional cleaning should come first (before framing) ... sometimes even the best treatment of items will cause a bit of further damage (to fibers , dyes , etc.) ; time-to-time , repairs need to be done post-cleaning (and pre-cleaning).
Doing so would avoid the future problems of dismounting , disassembly & re-doing the whole framing/blocking process .
I just think it's easier to do it right the first time ... also think it's worth it to 'take your time' doing so .
Once you're done , you'll have something that you won't have to hassle with & can sit back & enjoy !
I will also add that there are other , somewhat inventive & time-consuming methods of framing/matting fabric items , besides shadow-boxes .
Let's face it , a frame is intended to 'frame' an item within it ... I say choose the type/style of frame that you'd prefer your embroidered be shown in , for it's lifetime .
I think a frame can certainly add to , or subtract from the appearance of a finished unit .
Considering the facts you've related about the fragility of your item , I'd agree with the other members who posted about mounting yours on another piece of fabric , professional cleaning , acid-free mat'ls , and of course UV protection .
Wishing you all the best with your project !
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LIke regularjoe's comments above. In addition, you do want some space between the frame and piece...allows air and less damage from light.
Also...make sure of the area you display it in that it has artificial lighting....very little natural light....UV rays will kill it!
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:( When I saw the title of this thread I was hoping it referred to a Kesi. Recently bought one from probably the best asian antiquities dealer in the world- Anthony J. Allen. Just thought I'd throw his name around, so if anyone is ever in New Zealand they could look him up. Very, very highly respected dealer, and author of four books on asian antiques and antiquities. If anyone is further interested in asian antiques or antiquites, just message me and I can get you in contact with him. Great guy, and one of the best knowledge sources out there on Asian antiques.
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Regularjoe is right on about take time to do it right, Try and visualize what would look best for it on the wall and accent it. As a general rule in photography if you add a colored matte to the item, pick a color in the item that has just a touch in the image / item, and this will bring it alive, or if there is a part of the image / item you want to bring out, find the color that contrast it. But do take you time to find the right frame or mounting technique, you will and you have something you can and will share for generations to come.
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Just got a reply from my friend
It is Chinese because of people's fashion in the image.Looks to be from Around 19?century... (hard to tell year without seeing fabric)
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Thanks so much KC. It's great to learn these details about it. I doubt that any better pictures would help with dating the fabric. But if there is anything in particular that might, just let me know. Finding out about this piece has led me to researching a few items I've inherited and I've been able to learn some things about their origin. I certainly appreciate your effort in helping me learn about a piece that I knew nothing about, other than I loved the look of it.