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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: Randell on September 30, 2009, 06:40:35 PM
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I need help with this item. I found it metal detecting about 2 years ago in Pennsylvania. There is a fort from the French and Indian War near by. Its brass or bronze. about the size of a fifty cent piece. Also the back is pitted but from the people that I showed it too, they say it looks like it might be a die or a stamp for glass or leather. Any help would be much appreciated. The image is from a scanner and it doesnt really show the detail very well.
(http://i860.photobucket.com/albums/ab167/randell15402/Properback.jpg)
(http://i860.photobucket.com/albums/ab167/randell15402/ProperFace.jpg)
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Sort of looks like a guy in armor , sitting on something like a hitching post .
There appears to be another figure in the background , to the left of the fellows shoulder .
I'm wondering how thick the metal is ( roughly) ?.?.
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Just trying this out for you to see if it makes it any clearer.........ign ore if it doesn't ;)
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Wow- I've never seen anything quite like that before. That must have been SO exciting to find!! I have no idea what it is, but it is really cool! If it's the size of a fifty cent piece it is pretty large, it seems like a strange thing to be a leather stamp, but I sure don't know what else it could be. Have you got a local museum that could take a look at it?
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It's 1 3/4" across by approx 1/2 " think. It's solid brass or bronze and also the front rim or border is flush with the figure. That indicates its a stamp/die/mark of some sort. The local castle is of no help. I dug it in Brownsville Pa, near the Nemacolon Castle that was known as Fort Burd in the 1700's. Since it is on the mon river many people passed through there on their journey west. The castle is of no help because its basically only a tour site and used for spooky tours during the Halloween season. Any help is much appreciated and I will keep you guys informed if I find out anything.
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I'm going to hazard a guess that perhaps this item might be a component from a French helmet , maybe used as a rivet for a chin-strap .
French helmets were typically made of brass .
The depiction on your item seems like it's a military/livery themed thingie .
Just a shot in the dark , but a possibility .
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He may not be sitting, he could in fact be running. See the way his hat is laid back? Could it be a wax stamp? It would have to be attached to something to be used, some sort of handle.
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I'm going to really go out on a limb here. Keep in mind I just woke up and still haven't had any caffeine.
The back appeared to me to have some sort of 'image' so tried rotating it after making it as clear as I could get.
Maybe it's sleep deprivation, but do I detect three circles? Is it possible these are button holes?
Like Tales, I saw the figure on the front as running. Would a messenger or runner have worn some sort of uniform?
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t98/geeziesmom/Properback-1.jpg)
Or possibly these are solder marks from being attached to another piece such as a stamp as Tales suggested?
Or.........maybe I just really need that caffeine. :-\
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Actually I think he's lounging against the hitching rail, see how his ankles are crossed? It definitely looks like two horse head hitching posts on the ends of the rail, all I can guess is that it was the stamp of someone who was in the livery business, or maybe a farrier. But the size is so large for any kind of stamp, that is the strange part. Being metal I don't think it's a butter stamp or a cookie stamp. For the life of me I can't think what would be stamped so large. Saddles usually have small tooling. You'd have to have a large, flat surface to use a stamp like that.
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It looks a tad short to be a hitching post to me, so I wouldn't make it a forgone conclusion that this is livery themed. I'm not saying it's not by any means, but wouldn't having a horse on it be more appropriate? It's hard to tell if the gentleman is wearing a shirt or a breastplate. It "looks" like a breastplate, but I would expect him to be wearing a helmet as well, and that doesn't look like any kind of helmet I've ever seen. It looks also like maybe some buttons on his shirt (if a shirt it is)? This is a very confusing piece :P. I still think it might be a wax stamp. It's size, thickness, shape etc are Consistent with that hypothesis. Some wax stamps are made as one piece with a short metal handle, and sometimes with a wood or antler handle, or soldered to a separate piece of metal. I dunno, that's the best guess that I have.
I would have been very stoked to find something like this. The only thing I ever found of any interest with my metal detector was an arrowhead next to a piece of rusty trash!
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He may not be sitting, he could in fact be running. See the way his hat is laid back?
I agree, it is a "running" figure. His left arm is extended backward and his right arm extended foreward ..... and left leg is extended foreward and his right leg is extended to his back.
Me thinks that is part of a paper embossing stamp being it is 1/2" thick. And if so, there would have been a "reverse" image for the base of the stamp and the entire mechanism would hve looked something like this, to wit:
(http://www.royalrubberstamps.com/CompanySeals/CompanySealImages/desk.jpg)
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Thanks for your input. I sent pictures to a colonial American expert and it has him stumped also. The back is actually smoother then it appears from the image. I scanned it and one of the negative effects to the picture is that, if the picture is not flush with the scanner window then it gets blurry. There are some dents in the back of it that look or give me the sense when I look at them to be hammer dents. I have been doing allot of study and all indication is that its a stamp. The only thing I can hope is to eventually find something that was stamped with this mark.
The figure is wearing clothing and he is sitting on the post. If you look at his hands they are holding his balance. There sadly is a lot of detail missing because of the scanned image. Thanks again all and I will post any info I get.
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Bump ;D
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Being as large as it is, could it be a harness stamp? Harness leather was, depending upon where on the horse it was located, quite wide. Or, maybe a saddle stamp. It's not a button and I don't think they had silver soldier back then but I could be wrong. ???
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Is there any reason this couldn't be a wax stamp, from some sort of courier service perhaps?
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Here's a thought- Since he is holding a scale, could this have been a weight of some sort? It would be interesting to know if it weight is consistant with a common measure of weight used during the 18th century.
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I think what was meant was that the figure is maintaining his balance by holding on to the hitching post , talesof ...
I'm still thinkin'/searching on this one .
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It's 1 3/4" across by approx 1/2 " think. It's solid brass or bronze and also the front rim or border is flush with the figure.
Now you all can guess all you want to as to what the “figure” is but the first thing you need to guess is, ……. “why is it 1 ¾ inches in diameter and ½ inch in thickness and made of solid brass?”
Now those dimensions alone limits what it could have been used for, regardless of what the image is on the front of it.
Now me guessed wrong about it being a "running" figure but me still thinks that it is part of a paper embossing stamp, to wit, like this:
(http://www.wnd.com/images/misc/obamalettertopseal.jpg)
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My best guess is that it is a privy seal or signet ( although the fact that it's in relief puzzles me a bit - they're not unknown to be this nomenclature , but... ) .
There's a pretty good bunch of research on seals at Dr. Dianne Tillotsons' website : www.medievalwriting .50megs.com/writing.htm
It's not really uncommon for seals to be of large diameter , in those from the 13th through 18th centuries .
Here's a photo of one for the Nachod Town (c1570) .
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( although the fact that it's in relief puzzles me a bit - they're not unknown to be this nomenclature , but... ).
RJ, I'm not sure what you mean by "in relief". It has me confused.
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Hey cogar ... didn't mean to get anyone as confused as I am ....
What I meant was that the object in question is a 'raised relief' (pooches out from the surface) , v.s. a carved relief (dug out of a flat surface) .... i.e. - 'cast' v.s. 'engraved' .
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OK, me comprendo now.
What confused me was, if it was used to emboss paper then there would have been a matching "carved relief" to go with the "raised relief" one.
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Yep , I had the same quandry .
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I'll say one thing, I think this has to be about the best "What is it?" we've had on this forum!
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Just throwing this out there.......
I know this has moved far away from the button theory, but had to post this link to a site that makes jewelry items from old buttons. Many of the 'figures' on the old buttons reminded me of the little guy on your find. But then myself, I find it hard to picture the size/depth not seeing it in person.
This is certainly an interesting (and curious) piece of history.
http://www.antiquewear.com/index.html
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I wonder if the "button guy" would know what this is?
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Its been a couple years and still no clue. Started metal detecting again and thought I would revisit this old item again. Any thoughts?
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Man, there's that one expert on Pawn Stars that knows everything there is to know about colonial coins, buttons and currency. I wonder if he would help. I'll see if I can find him.
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This guy.
http://www.earlyamerican.com/Auctions/ClientPages/home.php
If you have to, just suggest that you are interested in selling it with him and maybe he will tell you about it.
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Hm nevermind. His evaluation service is $25. :-\
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Wow, he has some awesome stuff on his website. Some is priced way crazy. Some is pretty reasonable. Lots of 1850's coverlets like mine. :)
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It might actually be paint lead.
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OK so I am by no means an expert but I know stamps in general and I am 90% sure this is one, it would make a recessed mark, which is the only way you can "mark" metals and pottery and the like back then. Are you sure it's brass? By the look of the man he is very relaxed and almost looks as if his top button is open on his collar, so it is not an upper class item. This would be a working man's stamp that he probably made himself. I am sure at one point in History marks were made simpler than putting them into a spike or handle. So a plate stamp that was pressed or hammered.
The almost "childlike" feel of it just reminds me of the first time I saw a McCoy and I thought it was a flower pot made by a child in school, mind you I was only 12, had no clue, and I was making a ton pottery, I thought mine was better HAHAHA :)
I don't know but I am sure it is a maker's mark, it seems completely inappropriate for written letters as a wax seal or embossed in the paper. Most of the old seals create a raise and most all are just initials (unless you were rich)
Hope this helps your journey!
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OK so I know it's not a coin stamp but this follows the same thought of what I am saying.
Tools of Trade
The art of the blacksmithing played a key role in the evolution of trade. For a long time trade operated through a fast and loose system of barter. The advent of metalwork allowed for the invention of the coin. Metal currency allowed greater flexibility and therefore more intense trading. Early coins were created by stamping metal discs with a die. The die was placed over the disc while the other end of it was tapped with a hammer, leaving an impression on the coin.
aghhh maybe this is something :)
http://www.civilwarmuseum.org/article003.htm (http://www.civilwarmuseum.org/article003.htm)