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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: Dean Perdue on October 05, 2009, 12:20:32 PM
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Any input on age or origin is appreciated.
I looked up Norimbergia on the internet and think it's in reference to Nurnberg but the info was limited.
Thanks
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I would guess this is from Nuremberg Germany. Perhaps the name on the back is in the old native German spelling? Just a guess. Nuremberg was know for among other things, fine pewter work. I would also assume that the number on the back is the year this was made. That looks like the Imperial Eagle of the Holy Roman Empire, which still ruled Germany at that time. I could be wrong, we'll see what the others have to say.
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Thanks alot skinny.
Seems like your always up on your history pretty well.
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The one thing that bothers me about the numbers being the date of Manufacture, is it appears to be stamped. I'm not exactly sure when stamping metal began to be used, but I would expects something that old would be hand wrought. The condition seems to good also for being a pewter object of a Antique age. Just an observation, to me it looks like a post 40's Decorative plate.
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Thanks Ironlord.
To me it appears the whole plate was stamped and don't know that the numbers are the date.
Trying to look into pewter plates on ebay and came across one from 1778 that had the same measurement in diameter and depth.Who knows if that means anything though.Here's a link
http://cgi.ebay.com/Freiberg-Germany-1778-Pewter-Plate_W0QQitemZ370254575100QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAntiques_Decorative_Arts?hash=item5634e475fc&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14
What surprises me is there are no others to be found for comparison or to learn about what time period it is really from.I thought it would be a easy task with the keyword Norimbergia but that has gotten virtually no results other than the original listing for this item.
I'll keep looking though.Not really expecting it to be from 1775 but knowing where it came from and what time period would be nice.
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One thing is for sure, it was made as a decorative plate, not sure this would be to functionable as Dinnerware. You said that the word Norimbergia had not results, bummer. I will poke at it too but sure my results won't be better. I assume that this is a historic town name, and maybe a special event year. Maybe Prussia would be my guess, I believe there emblem was much like that, and would match the time frame around 1778. I check into that too just for grins and giggles.
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Found this little note on history
(1778 – 79) Conflict in which Frederick II of Prussia prevented Joseph II of Austria from acquiring Bavaria. After the death of the Bavarian elector Maximilian Joseph (1727 – 77), his successor, Charles Theodore (1724 – 99), ceded Lower Bavaria to Austria. Frederick II responded by declaring war (1778). There was little fighting because each force was concerned with cutting its opponent's communications and denying it supplies. Short on supplies, soldiers foraged for potatoes; hence, the conflict was nicknamed the "potato war." In 1779 Austria and Prussia signed a treaty giving Austria a fraction of the territory originally occupied.
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http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290340717569&SID=gtw4sc#ht_500wt_1182
scroll down to listing.
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Possibly a Passover Plate ??
http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/679499
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Good shot shapphire. I kept finding reference to this listing but couldn't quite grab it. First let me forgive myself for my insight on the date of 1775. i just noticed it says 1775 not 1778, confusion set it :o. Now I will have to go back to Prussia / Austrian history 101 ( actually 1775, but 101 sounded more realistic) ::). I did look into the Double headed Eagle, and found listing for it under Prussian and Austrian. But nothing on the word Norimbergia, but sounds like it could be Nurnberg, considering it is in the Bavarian Area. Still not convience that it is that old, and as for the listing on ebay no one bought it for $425.00, and they didn't seem to know anymore the we. Sapphire I will have to check on what exactly is a passover plate. This looks too military to me to be religious, but I'm the ignorant one here, but working on it ;D
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O.k. Just got my education on Passover plate. That would be a special jewish plate design for 6 types of symbolic foods. The posting that like to the plate was a good match on style to the current plate, but I don't think either would be considered a passover plate. I have to look a bit more at the various passover plate but seem to Hebrew in origin.
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History is my thing 8). Norimbergia IS the old German reference to Nuremberg. Looked it up, it's the same place. That's where they had those war criminal trials after WWII. I don't think it's stamped, I think pewter is cast from a mold. No reason I can see that it's construction would red flag it against being 18th century. As far as value, my guess would be around $125. I'll bet there are quite a few of these things over there in Germany.
I would bet against this being a passover plate. I don't think the Imperial eagle fits that bill.
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Cool so Nurnberg it is. Could be molded, but still from my angle I see pressed. I don't think the construction is my only concern about it being 18th century. Yes the stamped thing was the first, but condition would be another. If this plate is about 250 years old, it was extreamly well cared for, pewter being a soft material usually won't hold this condition, esp. the details, note the texture around the eagle, if not totally protected and un used, that would be the first to wear. Then to top this, pewter that old is extreamly rare, Pewter was one of the first recyclable material, it was used over and over, making new items with it. Being a show piece this would be possible, but if so you would be looking at a extreally valueable and rare item. I of course could be wrong here and am heating up my stove for so Crow stew here. but I still see a Tourist commerative plate that is post 40's. And if you can find a true pewter item that old it is worth far more then $125.00.
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Thanks for all the help on this one.
How great is it to have all these opinions from collectors and people with a interest.
The link Sapphire tracked down is the seller I got this from.
Before getting it I looked long and hard for 6 weeks on the web,ebay,ebay Germany, and pewter plate sites to see if the price I was paying was a decent one,but came up with nothing for comparison.
I had the same thoughts as Ironlord but just could not find another.
In regards to the plate being in nice shape,it was surprisingly heavy and it would take allot to bend it.
There is a pewter hanger on the back that is cracked and under magnification shows heavy wear at the top of the loop so it was definately for display and not function.
Well old or not I liked it and thought it had great detailing and didn't see any others around so now here I am trying to find out some more if possible.Great insights from everyone and I really enjoyed all the history.Old or not I guess this is still what the plate represents.
Really appreciate the info from you guys and it is far more than I knew before.
Many thanks.
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ironlord, just a few references I came across regarding the use of the double headed eagle in Judaic symbolism.
http://jhom.com/topics/birds/double_eagle.html
http://www.thejewishmuseum.org/onlinecollection/object_collection.php?objectid=2460&popOver=largeImage
"The doubled-headed eagle is often interpreted as a political symbol associated with the Russian Empire. Several Eastern European artifacts in The Jewish Museum collection feature the double-headed eagle, including Torah shields and Hanukkah lamp; as well as a mold for pastries baked for the holiday of Purim."
http://ejmmm2007.blogspot.com/2007_07_01_archive.html
http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:019pXFxPwvsJ:www.magnes.org/opensourceblog/%3Fp%3D290+seder+double+headed+eagle&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&client=safari
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Thanks Sapphire, I had no ideal the use of the double eagle in judism. When I get home from work today I will check out the sites, thanks for all of you keeping me on my toes ;D. I just read in a couple of books about the rariety of old pewter, then after I look around a bit on Ebay under 18th century pewter, there was several items, and many even I could afford. looks like I will have to learn a bit more stilll. MMMM boiled crow tonight. :-\
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Sapphire thanks for those links. One of them had a very similar eagle that was listed as eagle of the Holy Roman Empire just as Skinny mentioned earlier,although the symbol on the plate doesn't have the crowns.
Here's a link to German eagles that showed a double headed with no crowns similar to the one in question.Looked like the coat of arms of the German Confederation to me.
Seems like the eagle is a widely used symbol that many countries and faiths use.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of_arms_of_Germany
Ironlord, don't think about any boiled crow.My thoughts were exactly along the same lines as yours and nothing is sure on this yet.
I got this thinking, OK I like it regardless of it's age,can't find another one, and if it's old it's just a bonus.If I see another one for sale for $9.99 then the jokes on me.It's always great to hear different points of veiw and thats what makes this forum an effective learning resource.
Anything you could share of importance from your readings on old pewter?
There does seem to be affordable and high end old pewter on ebay. Don't know exactly what makes a pewter piece affordable or expensive though.
Here's one on ebay that I came across yesterday that has a high price tag.
http://cgi.ebay.com/RARE-German-Patin-Nuremberg-1619-Communion-Dish_W0QQitemZ190339788238QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAntiques_Decorative_Arts?hash=item2c5122adce
Thanks again all for the help.
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It does look spot on like the coat of arms of the German Confederation, which came to be after the Napoleonic Wars, a bit later than 1775. That doesn't mean that this couldn't be from 1775 though. The Eagle symbol was used by many family's and cities in Germany as part of their coat of arms, not to mention the Emperors. I might hypothesize that this particular rendering may have came about just as a general depiction of the eagle for the German people. It lacks the more specific coat of arms elements of some of the others I've seen from that time, the ones that represent the Aristocratic family's etc. This design may then have been chosen (later on) by the German Confederation. That makes since to me. A sort of vague Eagle coat of arms that represents everybody (in the style of a true confederation). In truth, Germany had long been a confederation, many states very loosely ruled over by the Holy Roman Emperors, particularly since the end of the Thirty years war in the 1600's.
Anyway, I think it's a nice piece. I wouldn't doubt that I low balled it at $125. I guess I don't really know squat about the value of something like this, authentic, reproduction, or otherwise.
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Great info Skinny.
It seems that the web doesn't have too much specific history on this time period,or I'm not looking in the right places.
I was wondering that very point, about this eagle being listed according to Wikpedia as the one used starting with the German Confederation in 1815.
It's facinating how this symbol ties in with the the Holy Roman Emporer.Any idea what the two heads represent?
Also you mentioned that you did see the word Norimbergia is Nurnberg.I would love to know is this in book?All I could find are about three things pertaining to this word refering to Germany and none being clear cut as to if this was Nurnberg.
Thanks for all the help and sharing your knowledge.
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WOW, that double headed eagle was popular.
German Confederation from 1848
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Confederation
Banner of the Holy Roman Emperor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Banner_of_the_Holy_ Roman_Emperor_(after_1400).svg
Coat of Arms of Austria 1919 - 1934
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of_arms_of_Austria
source of the above links
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-headed_eagle
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Okay my 2 cents...I do believe that this was produced the 20th Century. Majority of pewter is molded (then hand finished if needed). However, stamped leaded pewter has been made.
This piece seems to have a "catalog number" on it - catalogs of wares w/catalog numbers were/are very commonplace from 19th and 20th Century pewterers. They are traditionally simple stamped numbers of three, four or five digits - usually under the name of the maker.
I have seen Norimburgia used in brand names so many times over the years such as bullets/shells (Marke Elefant von Norimbergia & Marke Panther von Norimbergia)
We have seen this name come across this site before....but my memory fails me as to whether it was 3 months ago...6 mos...etc. We have also seen many pewter plates come across this site.
The double-headed eagle has been produced & reproduced & reproduced.... extremely popular due to it's "look" and historical nature.
They were typically made for cupboard or wall display. (Especially the leaded ones.) However, many people use them for breads, crackers, etc.
Just for grins I put in double headed eagle pewter plate norimbergia and this came up....but you can't find it on the site. (Superpages Shopping: Pewter Plates 5th one down - sounds like yours!).
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Yeah Cougar many different double heded eagles for sure.Thanks for those links.
KC thanks for your take and I don't doubt it but sure would like to know for sure.
I have seen that antique shotgun shell maker mark when I was searching the web under Norimbergia.
What gets me though,is that if this Noriombergia appears in brand names so many times how come there is so very few results when searched on the web.At least that I could track down I didn't see one product.
Even if it was mentioned on a forum,ebay,a sellers ad,historical information,ect...,wouldn't it show up.
I would think if its a common maker that would be the case.That to me is the mystery on this one.
As mentioned earlier I dont doubt or believe anything on it's age till I see something to establish a fact.
Not really expecting it to be old but if it is that is nice.
Ironlord and yourself make great observations and valid points. Just trying to find out this things origin for sure though.
What leads me to believe it is modern is Ironlords comments about condition.On the other hand it was for decorative use.
What gives me some thoughts for it being somewhat old is:
The fact of it's very nicley detailed(up close you can see the pupils in the eyes)and in general I don't see quality in modern items.
Very heavy.
Out of round and somewhat wavy on the rim area.
Measurements are exactly that of a known example from this time period.
Well I guess it might be wishful thinking but I really don't have much in the way of fact to prove or disprove the age at this point.
I'm thinking that the 1775 is a mold number but don't know.
Tried to look at Superpages and can't find what you are describing.Any way you could give a link so that I can contact them for a photo so I can know for sure?
Thanks
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Came across a exellent page from Britannica on antique pewter and other metals with some mention of, as Skinny said pewter manufactuing in Nurnberg.
Takes a second to load though.
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/377708/metalwork/74021/Pewter
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When I had put the word Norimbergia into a search engine, it came up with a German language Wikipedia page about the German town of Norimbergia. I hit the translate key and the word Norimbergia translated into the English name for the town, Nuremberg. I don't know where this "Nurnburg" stuff is coming from. Is that just another spelling for Nuremberg? The Germans call their country Deuichland ( I probably badly misspelled that) and we call it Germany, so many of the towns have different names in German also. Dean, I say, if you want to believe that this is from 1775, go right ahead ;D! A real expert could prove or disprove that for sure, but until then.....
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Okay my 2 cents...I do believe that this was produced the 20th Century. Majority of pewter is molded (then hand finished if needed). However, stamped leaded pewter has been made.
This piece seems to have a "catalog number" on it - catalogs of wares w/catalog numbers were/are very commonplace from 19th and 20th Century pewterers. They are traditionally simple stamped numbers of three, four or five digits - usually under the name of the maker.
I have seen Norimburgia used in brand names so many times over the years such as bullets/shells (Marke Elefant von Norimbergia & Marke Panther von Norimbergia)
We have seen this name come across this site before....but my memory fails me as to whether it was 3 months ago...6 mos...etc. We have also seen many pewter plates come across this site.
The double-headed eagle has been produced & reproduced & reproduced.... extremely popular due to it's "look" and historical nature.
They were typically made for cupboard or wall display. (Especially the leaded ones.) However, many people use them for breads, crackers, etc.
Just for grins I put in double headed eagle pewter plate norimbergia and this came up....but you can't find it on the site. (Superpages Shopping: Pewter Plates 5th one down - sounds like yours!).
KC, don't know if you're aware, but when you use terms to search such as these and you get some hits, but can't find the reference......usua lly due to too much to skim through or it's from a page no longer 'visible'.......go back to the original hit, look for the word Cached following the listing. Click on that and it will highlight some/all of the searched terms and often bring up 'old' pages.
For some reason it won't let me copy and paste the link highlighted Superpages Shopping page here, probably too long.
Give it a try!
It is the link to the original ebay listing for Dean's plate. ;)
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Sapphire you are letting out your secrets ;D
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Shhhhh, actually it's a 'family' secret............. my daughter taught me!! :D
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Try this one.....I think you will find it looks like your and will probably like the price tag it sold for!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230358501750 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230358501750)
Thanks Sapphire....I tried that earlier and it didn't work...but today my computer has been a little haywire.
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Try this one.....I think you will find it looks like your and will probably like the price tag it sold for!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230358501750 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230358501750)
Thanks Sapphire....I tried that earlier and it didn't work...but today my computer has been a little haywire.
I think that IS his plate, so we'll hope he likes what it sold for!
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KC- Thanks for your time for posting the link off Superpages shopping so I know now there is not (as of yet) another one on the internet.I guess time will eventually tell though.
Skinny-I think Nurnberg vs Nuremberg is the German spelling. I've always wondered why we in America and some other countries refer to Deutschland as Germany too. Just like Munchen is Munich.
Maybe so that it's easier to pronounce in our language.
I want to thank everyone for all the great help and insights.
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I've always wondered why we in America and some other countries refer to Deutschland as Germany too.
I learned to do so after spending 3 weeks in Germany on business. To purchase that fine beer and good food, one had to pay for it in Deutsche Marks or German marks (dollars). ;D ;D
Now one has to have Euros.
And I was in Munchen or Munich for 3 days and one of those days I spent in the biggest beer hall I've ever seen. And they sure did "roll out the barrels". ;D
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Can you desribe your beer hall experience in a few words.
Some crazy history in those Munich beer halls for sure.
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I’m pretty sure this is where I was.
Hofbräuhaus Munchen - http://www.hofbraeuhaus.de/en/index_en.html (http://www.hofbraeuhaus.de/en/index_en.html)
Click the “Hofbrauhaus Press” tab and then click the “photos” or ”videos” tab.
It was like 2 football fields long with live entertainment at both ends and with picnic tables to sit at. And when they “rolled out” a new barrel of beer, which was about 1 per hour, it took 4 guys to do it because it must have been at least a 500 gallon barrel. And they only served the beer in one (1) liter mugs. I still have visions of a hefty bar maid carrying four (4) full mugs of beer in each hand.